Handswinging?
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Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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baron_beeza, I concede your point as your knowlege of engine timing etc exceeds mine. However, I have since that particular event used the same technique on several occasions with the same success.
I point out that the method I described was shown to me by my then Chief Pilot, and when the event I described occurred I was with another company and my CP was the company owner and also a LAME.
After arriving back at Port Moresby he asked me exactly how I started the engine and after I told him, his only reaction was along the lines of
'Fair enough, well done.' Knowing his background as a LAME I feel that if he considered it an unsafe technique he would have told me so at the time.
I point out that the method I described was shown to me by my then Chief Pilot, and when the event I described occurred I was with another company and my CP was the company owner and also a LAME.
After arriving back at Port Moresby he asked me exactly how I started the engine and after I told him, his only reaction was along the lines of
'Fair enough, well done.' Knowing his background as a LAME I feel that if he considered it an unsafe technique he would have told me so at the time.
Pinky
In all probability having the right mag on as well as the left doesn't achieve anymore than just having the left mag on. What I mean is, having the right mag on in most circumstances is pretty harmless as it's very unlikely to produce a spark so the risk of a backfire and kick back is pretty low.
The reason for the lack of spark is the right mag isn't rotating fast enough to produce enough electricity when you prop swing. At the risk of telling you how to suck eggs, the impulse coupling goes two jobs, retard the spark for starting and momentarily spin (impulse) the mag fast enough to produce enough power for a decent spark. This I believe is why it hasn't been a problem for you with both mags on.
However I think there is always a risk, albeit very small, that the right mag could produce a spark so if I were hand swinging I would leave left the right mag off if at all possible, unless I knew it had an impulse coupling as well.
In all probability having the right mag on as well as the left doesn't achieve anymore than just having the left mag on. What I mean is, having the right mag on in most circumstances is pretty harmless as it's very unlikely to produce a spark so the risk of a backfire and kick back is pretty low.
The reason for the lack of spark is the right mag isn't rotating fast enough to produce enough electricity when you prop swing. At the risk of telling you how to suck eggs, the impulse coupling goes two jobs, retard the spark for starting and momentarily spin (impulse) the mag fast enough to produce enough power for a decent spark. This I believe is why it hasn't been a problem for you with both mags on.
However I think there is always a risk, albeit very small, that the right mag could produce a spark so if I were hand swinging I would leave left the right mag off if at all possible, unless I knew it had an impulse coupling as well.
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Hi FSO
Yes, while there is some journalistic licence in the story as told, it did have a factual basis.
One of the things not discussed in the current thread is the need to either tie the aircraft down at the tail or have a qualified person in the cockpit to hold it on the brakes.
Amazing how many have jumped chocks!
There has been a number get away over the years. Little things like the throttle linkage being adjusted during maintenance or differences between aircraft of the same type are amongst the culprits (along with careless pilots)
Kaz (Karen ... A proud Auster owner, albeit one with an 0-320 fitted)
Yes, while there is some journalistic licence in the story as told, it did have a factual basis.
One of the things not discussed in the current thread is the need to either tie the aircraft down at the tail or have a qualified person in the cockpit to hold it on the brakes.
Amazing how many have jumped chocks!
There has been a number get away over the years. Little things like the throttle linkage being adjusted during maintenance or differences between aircraft of the same type are amongst the culprits (along with careless pilots)
Kaz (Karen ... A proud Auster owner, albeit one with an 0-320 fitted)
And....an electric start I guess Kaz..??
Many moons ago, I was offerred the opportunity to do some glider towing in an Auster, for an organisation where my son was flying the gliders.
It was nearly 20 yrs since flying an Auster, so that night I was rehearsing all the left foot forward / heel brakes bit....
Imagine my suprise to see that this particular Auster had a Lycoming in the front...& Cessna hyd. brakes!!
It was a luvly two days doing the towing for the boys.....NO handswinging req'd., and the 'endorsement' for the towing as well.
Cheers
Many moons ago, I was offerred the opportunity to do some glider towing in an Auster, for an organisation where my son was flying the gliders.
It was nearly 20 yrs since flying an Auster, so that night I was rehearsing all the left foot forward / heel brakes bit....
Imagine my suprise to see that this particular Auster had a Lycoming in the front...& Cessna hyd. brakes!!
It was a luvly two days doing the towing for the boys.....NO handswinging req'd., and the 'endorsement' for the towing as well.
Cheers
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Thanks for that 27/09. I think that sums it up.
I last swung an aircraft about 6 hours ago, - it was a Tomahawk and it would have started on about the third swing. Possibly even the second.
I think turning the right mag off is more of a habit thing. Today I had sufficient speed in the prop that the right may have indeed tried to fire,- if turned on.
I still have scars on the inside of my right knee where the kickback from an AJS 500 single lifted this 7 stone schoolboy into the oil tank filler cap.
Each pot on an O-235 must be about 800cc..
The motorbike had a mag also, no impulse but relied on body weight to swing the piston through the TDC position in a swift manner.
I am just much happier knowing the spark is occurring the other side of TDC when swinging a prop. ie any piston movement is in the same direction as my swing. I don't fancy the blade coming back up towards me.
I last swung an aircraft about 6 hours ago, - it was a Tomahawk and it would have started on about the third swing. Possibly even the second.
I think turning the right mag off is more of a habit thing. Today I had sufficient speed in the prop that the right may have indeed tried to fire,- if turned on.
I still have scars on the inside of my right knee where the kickback from an AJS 500 single lifted this 7 stone schoolboy into the oil tank filler cap.
Each pot on an O-235 must be about 800cc..
The motorbike had a mag also, no impulse but relied on body weight to swing the piston through the TDC position in a swift manner.
I am just much happier knowing the spark is occurring the other side of TDC when swinging a prop. ie any piston movement is in the same direction as my swing. I don't fancy the blade coming back up towards me.
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Auster VH-BYM does have an electric start and, so far, I haven't had to prop her :-)
She still has the heel brake pedals linked to cables operating drums which can best be described as an aid to taxiing when not wet.
We get along at 100 knots and do the rudder dance every landing, too. She keeps me very honest!
kaz
She still has the heel brake pedals linked to cables operating drums which can best be described as an aid to taxiing when not wet.
We get along at 100 knots and do the rudder dance every landing, too. She keeps me very honest!
kaz
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Yes well, that's a Monasco Ryan which normally used a crank. A great bloke who was party to introducing me to flying had me in his STM Ryan and I witnessed the same Bert Skinner get a clout on the hand at Camden when a restart was needed due to leaving same crank at Bankstown. I believe he died later, but I'm unsure whether it was related to the prop strike.
I know of one Ryan that had a Gypsy Major which needed the opposite swing ala Tiger Moth/ Auster. Did away with the crank which is one thing.
BTW, Austers had mag switches on port side instrument panel where the start required sliding window open for action if needed.
As for spam cans, the trailing edge of the airscrew was rather sharp and needed finger tips for the follow through.
I know of one Ryan that had a Gypsy Major which needed the opposite swing ala Tiger Moth/ Auster. Did away with the crank which is one thing.
BTW, Austers had mag switches on port side instrument panel where the start required sliding window open for action if needed.
As for spam cans, the trailing edge of the airscrew was rather sharp and needed finger tips for the follow through.
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Hey Oz, I guess they are slo-mo shots - very interesting, never seen that stuff before.
Seemed like at the end of the stroke, the young bloke was almost pushing on the prop.
Definitely too many knuckles over the edge as you say, but as close to the prop tip as he can get, which is a good thing. After seeing the shots, bet he's moved the fingers back a bit!
My young bloke does the same kind of start on our tiger - grips the cabane strut - but he's built a bit like an orangutan like yours.
I swing from the rear also, but find better foot balance without reaching back for the strut... Will have to get some slomo shots of our techniques.
Some prop swingers tend to use way too much force than necessary, also leading to an unsure footing. Just getting the prop over the compression stroke is all that's necessary, speed doesn't count.
Mate of mine swings only from the front (no knuckles over the trailing edge of the prop, only fingertips). with another pilot aboard - left hand is behind his back, and action is a bit like bowing to the Queen - that slow. He's been doing it for over 50 years, and still got all his fingers........so it works.
Obviously there are several techniques that work and are safe, just find the right one for you,,,,and get some slomo shots to prove it.
Thanks for the pics, and love the polished cowls - on both aeroplanes
Seemed like at the end of the stroke, the young bloke was almost pushing on the prop.
Definitely too many knuckles over the edge as you say, but as close to the prop tip as he can get, which is a good thing. After seeing the shots, bet he's moved the fingers back a bit!
My young bloke does the same kind of start on our tiger - grips the cabane strut - but he's built a bit like an orangutan like yours.
I swing from the rear also, but find better foot balance without reaching back for the strut... Will have to get some slomo shots of our techniques.
Some prop swingers tend to use way too much force than necessary, also leading to an unsure footing. Just getting the prop over the compression stroke is all that's necessary, speed doesn't count.
Mate of mine swings only from the front (no knuckles over the trailing edge of the prop, only fingertips). with another pilot aboard - left hand is behind his back, and action is a bit like bowing to the Queen - that slow. He's been doing it for over 50 years, and still got all his fingers........so it works.
Obviously there are several techniques that work and are safe, just find the right one for you,,,,and get some slomo shots to prove it.
Thanks for the pics, and love the polished cowls - on both aeroplanes
Grandpa Aerotart
First thought, why swing one from the front, and one from the rear.
), I don't typically hang off the cabane strut - I feel more balanced and comfortable with my feet planted firmly...no longer being built like a young Orangutang 
Many moons ago I had to prop start a (warm) C185 at very high density altitude in PNG - alone - it was a nightmare - but I was young and dumb. Finally got it to run and made it home before dark. I promised myself that day if it ever happened again I would get on the HF (it was a starter motor problem not flat battery) and call in knowledgeable help. With another pilot sitting behind the controls it would have been all done in 5 minutes - alone took closer to an hour and about 6 false starts
If you're flying in remote areas its a skill you probably should have - ask a Lame* how to effect a start (alone**) on the aircraft you're flying. Then only do it as an absolute last resort.
* If you're lucky he/the boss will forbid you to do it and instruct you to call for engineers.
** Murphy's Law says the day you need to hand swing a prop there won't be another pilot/LAME within 200nm
OzBUSDRIVER I assume your boy is handy with polish too
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 14th Mar 2012 at 11:50.
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Chimbu,
I actually didn't need to go deep into the reasons why it was being started from the front, the reason became clear after my first thought...and it was a fleeting one
I understand the bit about magneto access, and it not being a problem with someone in the cockpit like in the ryan pic.
Issue with a tail dragger, risk of taking out kneecaps.....so why would you do it?
Second thought, after i looked again.....take another look at the Ryan pic...
Fried nuts anyone.....
I actually didn't need to go deep into the reasons why it was being started from the front, the reason became clear after my first thought...and it was a fleeting one
I understand the bit about magneto access, and it not being a problem with someone in the cockpit like in the ryan pic.
Issue with a tail dragger, risk of taking out kneecaps.....so why would you do it?
Second thought, after i looked again.....take another look at the Ryan pic...
Fried nuts anyone.....
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LOL, only the fridge is half empty.....ie always a full can close by.
As for the serious bit. I'm an advocate of standing behind the prop. Looking at the ryan pic, and those exhausts poking out, i'm pretty sure with the crap they make shirts out of these days, you won't get me standing there!!!
To coin a phrase around here "best practice vs safest option"
I'd love to hear ozbusdrivers reason why they start the ryan from the front
As for the serious bit. I'm an advocate of standing behind the prop. Looking at the ryan pic, and those exhausts poking out, i'm pretty sure with the crap they make shirts out of these days, you won't get me standing there!!!
To coin a phrase around here "best practice vs safest option"
I'd love to hear ozbusdrivers reason why they start the ryan from the front
jas24zzk, combination of exhaust pipes sticking out and the front of the undercarriage leaves little area for manuevering....and he doesn't like the flames.
Chuck, all of OAC's aeroplanes look like that lots of mopping of floors and elbow grease on shinny surfaces and ...you even get to learn how to fix all of them.....lucky little so and so
EDIT- The lad just got in from work...the reason for the stronger grip on the Ryan's prop was for giving it a good follow through for priming. The actual stroke for starting is a much shorter, easier pull through compression.
For me. had it demonstarted on a C150 by our CFI, John Young. Little 0-200 had him practically touching his knees on the compression stroke....not a good posture close to a prop about to fling into a blur.
Chuck, all of OAC's aeroplanes look like that
lots of mopping of floors and elbow grease on shinny surfaces and ...you even get to learn how to fix all of them.....lucky little so and soEDIT- The lad just got in from work...the reason for the stronger grip on the Ryan's prop was for giving it a good follow through for priming. The actual stroke for starting is a much shorter, easier pull through compression.
For me. had it demonstarted on a C150 by our CFI, John Young. Little 0-200 had him practically touching his knees on the compression stroke....not a good posture close to a prop about to fling into a blur.
It's interesting that in nearly 80 posts so far, no one has mentioned the legality of hand swinging.
If the aircraft is designed to be hand swung, the procedure is in the flight manual and you are flying a fully serviceable aircraft in accordance with that manual - happy days
If the aircraft is designed with electric start (like a four cylinder Piper or Cessna) and you find the starter motor U/S, or the battery flat and you decide to hand swing it.... you are now deliberately setting out to operate an unserviceable aircraft without entering the defect in the maintenance release, and not in accordance with the flight manual starting procedure. Something the insurance lads might point out to you if you present them with a medical bill ...
If the aircraft is designed to be hand swung, the procedure is in the flight manual and you are flying a fully serviceable aircraft in accordance with that manual - happy days
If the aircraft is designed with electric start (like a four cylinder Piper or Cessna) and you find the starter motor U/S, or the battery flat and you decide to hand swing it.... you are now deliberately setting out to operate an unserviceable aircraft without entering the defect in the maintenance release, and not in accordance with the flight manual starting procedure. Something the insurance lads might point out to you if you present them with a medical bill ...
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Hi Checkboard - Tiger does not have a flight manual - placards in aircraft only - no mention of starting procedure there.
Ozbus, was that John Young you mentioned from Redcliffe? He was the CFI there in the early 70's
Ozbus, was that John Young you mentioned from Redcliffe? He was the CFI there in the early 70's