When Is An Aircraft An Aircraft?
Sunfish,
You make your life too complicated by overly worrying about bureacracy.
Let me tell you that when you finally get to play with your aluminium bits, the paperwork and Boeing-standard documentation will be a long way from your mind!
How to get that damned rivet set correctly will be a more immediate concern.
You make your life too complicated by overly worrying about bureacracy.
Let me tell you that when you finally get to play with your aluminium bits, the paperwork and Boeing-standard documentation will be a long way from your mind!
How to get that damned rivet set correctly will be a more immediate concern.
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To put that another way, when does a collection of chunks of Aluminium become something that is subject to the regulations?
I got around this issue by building in wood.
I got around this issue by building in wood.
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When it exceeds 600kg MTOW 
Doesn't implying regulations on newly built aircraft begin way before aluminium part's?
Example as to design, weight, speed, etc..
As other's said it also depends on what the aircraft is going to be used for ect.. Normal, utility, acrobatic, or commuter category airplane.
Thread Starter
Andy:
With respect NO! I can set the rivet correctly, but how do I convince CASA that:
(1) It is a rivet.
(2) A real live aviation rivet of the right size and characteristics.
(3) Its in the right place, according to the plans.
(4) The rivet gauge i use is a real rivet gauge.
(5) The spec. I measure against is the appropriate spec.
(6) My measurement is kosher.
I don't mean to be a pedant, but maybe it's because I once worked for an ex Air Force engineer. Then again there was our delightful but paranoid Chief Inspector at Ansett.
Let me tell you that when you finally get to play with your aluminium bits, the paperwork and Boeing-standard documentation will be a long way from your mind!
How to get that damned rivet set correctly will be a more immediate concern.
How to get that damned rivet set correctly will be a more immediate concern.
(1) It is a rivet.
(2) A real live aviation rivet of the right size and characteristics.
(3) Its in the right place, according to the plans.
(4) The rivet gauge i use is a real rivet gauge.
(5) The spec. I measure against is the appropriate spec.
(6) My measurement is kosher.
I don't mean to be a pedant, but maybe it's because I once worked for an ex Air Force engineer. Then again there was our delightful but paranoid Chief Inspector at Ansett.
Sunfish
In the multiple years that it will take you to build your dream aircraft, either:
The paperwork burden will have potentially diminished due to the continual work of the ever diminishing ranks of competent, motivated, proactive, dedicated volunteers (perhaps addressing some of your concerns), or...
Will have increased significantly in line with the over-regulation that is slowly crippling most modern democracies, unchecked by the proliferation of self interested, uncoordinated, recreational aviation splinter groups.
Either way, the paperwork and regulations are such a small part of the process. Attempting to be compliant before staring construction will likeley doom the project.
I wish you the best of luck, but if you want to build an aircraft, you need to get into the garage. None of us can predict the future.
Cheers
In the multiple years that it will take you to build your dream aircraft, either:
The paperwork burden will have potentially diminished due to the continual work of the ever diminishing ranks of competent, motivated, proactive, dedicated volunteers (perhaps addressing some of your concerns), or...
Will have increased significantly in line with the over-regulation that is slowly crippling most modern democracies, unchecked by the proliferation of self interested, uncoordinated, recreational aviation splinter groups.
Either way, the paperwork and regulations are such a small part of the process. Attempting to be compliant before staring construction will likeley doom the project.
I wish you the best of luck, but if you want to build an aircraft, you need to get into the garage. None of us can predict the future.
Cheers
When you've completed your first flight in your RV-whatever or whatever, I think you'll have the credibility to say that, but until then, I'd suggest you'll be drilling out rivets like the rest of us! 
CASA don't give a ****, it's your arse!
CASA don't give a ****, it's your arse!
CASA don't give a ****, nor do they approve the plans (unless it's an LSA, then, why are you bothering CASA?)
CASA don't give a ****, it's your arse!
CASA don't give a ****, it's your arse!
CASA don't give a ****, it's your arse!
Just flippin' buy the kit and get rivetting!
but how do I convince CASA that:
(1) It is a rivet.
(1) It is a rivet.
(2) A real live aviation rivet of the right size and characteristics.
(3) Its in the right place, according to the plans.
(4) The rivet gauge i use is a real rivet gauge.
(5) The spec. I measure against is the appropriate spec.
(6) My measurement is kosher.
Just flippin' buy the kit and get rivetting!
Aircraft- An aircraft is any machine that can derive support in the atmosphere from the reactions of the air other than the reactions of the air against the earth’s surface. (ICAO Annex 1, Annex 6 Part I)
Thread Starter
Andy RR:
Well at least I'm not building in composites.
Noted American Wooden Yacht Designer L. Francis Herreshof famously called epoxy; "Frozen Snot".
How to get that damned rivet set correctly will be a more immediate concern.
Noted American Wooden Yacht Designer L. Francis Herreshof famously called epoxy; "Frozen Snot".
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I remember Clive Canning talking at length about the comparisons of building his Thorpe T18 and, later, his Rutan Defiant. The former was a walk-in-the-park compared the latter thanks to added regulatory compliance. Further, the Defiant was first-of-type in Oz. Is that why you're worrying, Sunfish; doing a first of type?
Sunfish,
If you want an authoritative explanation of the underpinning "philosophy" for Experimental Amateur Built certificates ( or most non- standard cat. aircraft, for that matter) talk to Stephen Dines of Dines Aviation in Sydney, he produces the final paperwork for a good proportion of all the amateur builts flying, probably more than SAAA.
I am afraid the SAAA have some rather odd "policies" that are a hold over from the pre-1998 days, and the old very restrictive and bureaucratic AABA approach to life.
In short, there are no standards, and the safety of the public under the flightpath of the aircraft, and other airspace users is controlled by the operating limitations that will be an annex of your Experimental Certificate, when you finally get same.
Andy_RR's colourful description is accurate.
Tootle pip!!!
If you want an authoritative explanation of the underpinning "philosophy" for Experimental Amateur Built certificates ( or most non- standard cat. aircraft, for that matter) talk to Stephen Dines of Dines Aviation in Sydney, he produces the final paperwork for a good proportion of all the amateur builts flying, probably more than SAAA.
I am afraid the SAAA have some rather odd "policies" that are a hold over from the pre-1998 days, and the old very restrictive and bureaucratic AABA approach to life.
In short, there are no standards, and the safety of the public under the flightpath of the aircraft, and other airspace users is controlled by the operating limitations that will be an annex of your Experimental Certificate, when you finally get same.
Andy_RR's colourful description is accurate.
Tootle pip!!!
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I know of someone that was "prosecuted" by CASA for carrying out maintenace on an aircraft. The said person was not a LAME nor a qualified AME.
This person purchased a damaged and unregistered certified aircraft type which he subsequently rebuilt in his garage. despite having no formal qualifications he did an A1 job with a high standard of work, used all manufacturer supplied replacment parts with the correct release note and tracability.
The s--t hit the fan with CASA when he went to register the aircraft and apply for a new certificate of airworthiness to be issued.
The problem was, he was not "authorised" as someone that could carry out the mainteance under CAR 42 ZC Mainteance on an Australian Aircraft in Australian teritory.
The definition of an Australian Aircraft is described in para 3 ( Interpretation) of the Civil Aviation Act.
3 Interpretation
In this Act, unless the contrary intention appears:
Australian aircraft means:
(a) aircraft registered in Australia; and
(b) aircraft in Australian territory, other than foreign registered aircraft and state aircraft.
This person purchased a damaged and unregistered certified aircraft type which he subsequently rebuilt in his garage. despite having no formal qualifications he did an A1 job with a high standard of work, used all manufacturer supplied replacment parts with the correct release note and tracability.
The s--t hit the fan with CASA when he went to register the aircraft and apply for a new certificate of airworthiness to be issued.
The problem was, he was not "authorised" as someone that could carry out the mainteance under CAR 42 ZC Mainteance on an Australian Aircraft in Australian teritory.
The definition of an Australian Aircraft is described in para 3 ( Interpretation) of the Civil Aviation Act.
3 Interpretation
In this Act, unless the contrary intention appears:
Australian aircraft means:
(a) aircraft registered in Australia; and
(b) aircraft in Australian territory, other than foreign registered aircraft and state aircraft.
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This person purchased a damaged and unregistered certified aircraft type which he subsequently rebuilt in his garage. despite having no formal qualifications he did an A1 job with a high standard of work, used all manufacturer supplied replacment parts with the correct release note and tracability.
It seems like a major waste of time, money and effort.
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The smart option would have been for him to find a LAME to sign it out for a few bucks.
Plenty of people are doing that out there, some long term Tiger Moth restorations come to mind.
Come-on Sunfish, divulge. You've been keeping us on edge for months.
Plenty of people are doing that out there, some long term Tiger Moth restorations come to mind.
Come-on Sunfish, divulge. You've been keeping us on edge for months.
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This person purchased a damaged and unregistered certified aircraft type which he subsequently rebuilt in his garage. despite having no formal qualifications he did an A1 job with a high standard of work, used all manufacturer supplied replacment parts with the correct release note and tracability.
VH-XXX please withdraw that post, not many people building those types
Cheers
BH
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This has the hallmarks of an urban myth.
I would liken that to someone buying an aircraft and teaching his son to fly.
Only to be told when trying to book him in for a PPL flight test.....
Ooops
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In recent days I discussed this very issue with a woman whose husband was searching for a property some years ago with a very large shed to restore his vintage a/c. They found the property, not far from me at the time, moved the bits in and rolled the restored a/c out. She's quite proud of the fact she helped. I have a passing interest in this; but passing interest only and wondered HTF he (and she) managed to get away with it. The a/c has long since been sold and flown interstate. Is it easier to do restorations than builds? As an afterthought, I remember my afore-mentioned Thorpe builder being frustrated he was not authorised to perform simple airframe maintenance on an a/c he had built literally from sheetmetal.
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VH-XXX please withdraw that post, not many people building those types
Last guy I helped to load a written off Tiger onto a trailer was nor a LAME or AME and he was restoring it himself to fly it.
BB - came across a guy like that recently, he was driving a tow truck and picking up a car from the airport when we got chatting and turned out that he owned a couple of unregistered Tigers up in the hills an was telling me how he was teaching his daughter to fly.
Thread Starter
XXX:
This problem - "scoff laws" emerges in all sorts of places when it becomes too difficult to comply with the law and regulations.
Osmosis:
As an afterthought, I remember my afore-mentioned Thorpe builder being frustrated he was not authorised to perform simple airframe maintenance on an a/c he had built literally from sheetmetal.
Do an SAAA maintainers course and you can maintain an aircraft you built yourself. If you buy an already built experimental aircraft you will have to have a LAME maintain it.
BB - came across a guy like that recently, he was driving a tow truck and picking up a car from the airport when we got chatting and turned out that he owned a couple of unregistered Tigers up in the hills an was telling me how he was teaching his daughter to fly.
Osmosis:
As an afterthought, I remember my afore-mentioned Thorpe builder being frustrated he was not authorised to perform simple airframe maintenance on an a/c he had built literally from sheetmetal.
Do an SAAA maintainers course and you can maintain an aircraft you built yourself. If you buy an already built experimental aircraft you will have to have a LAME maintain it.