SMS – Friend of Foe?.
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Suggested task force can't be out of Moorabbin as now closed. Try Paris end of Collins St. Closer to airline ho. You can see Tulla through a telescope.
The staff in Melbourne don't appear to be where industry would them to be?
The staff in Melbourne don't appear to be where industry would them to be?
Last edited by halfmanhalfbiscuit; 23rd Jan 2012 at 22:10. Reason: Too cryptic
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Selcal: I guess that I'm one of a number of 'moderates' who think that there is too much CASA emphasis on LAW these days, and not enough on SAFETY. Whilst there may be cross-overs between the two concepts; absolute compliance does not assure safety - is not that SMS lesson 101?
Just for starters - the debate over the method to be used needs to be finalised. Some believe the 'big' company approach is the only one. CASA do frequently knock back anything that does not fit 'their' model. You can of course at great expense 'buy' an off the shelf job which will go through like grass through a goose. Hmmm, I wonder; nah couldn't be.
I believe a SMS should be tailor made to each operation, hand crafted with care and grown from within. In a very short period it becomes a natural part of the ethos and operating culture of the company. Sure, a preferred 'standard' frame work of reporting, assessing and managing should be there, but that is where the external interference should stop.
To make the thing rock there are several things which cannot be part of the system. One of these is fear. Fear of prosecution, fear of job loss, fear of ridicule, fear for reputation. The other big bad is ignorance, now here it gets a bit subjective, but if the 'risk' cannot be identified (known) there is little chance of it being reported.
The next trick is classification, assessment, recording, action and education.
$00.20 AUD.
Last edited by Kharon; 25th Jan 2012 at 07:16. Reason: 2 be
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K, I fully agree with your comments. Whilst not completely familiar with the latest GA SMS issues, every thing you say makes sense. Have you considered a SMS 'contract' with CASA or better still the next CASA CEO? - JOKING!
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Theres a thought.
Fox in the chook shed metinks. However, could it be worse, the following springs to mind, seems appropriate.
My bold, ( chuckles as Jabba and GDock 
& 
) exit stage left 
Mercutio:
Nay, if our wits run the wild-goose chase, I am done; for
thou hast more of the wild goose in one of thy wits than, I am
sure, I have in my whole five.
'the audience must have been familiar with the real game, in which one horseman executed a series of difficult manoeuvres which others had to repeat in close succession'. (Thus Romeo's obscure "swits and spurs"—that is, "switch and spurs," to control one's baffled steed.)
The game was probably named after the flight pattern of a flock of wild geese, which obediently follows the often erratic lead of the head goose. Thus, perhaps, the latter-day sense of the phrase: the pursuit of an evasive leader evolved into the pursuit of an impossible or illusory goal.
Mercutio also refers to his "five wits." He doesn't mean the five senses, but rather the corresponding intellectual faculties: memory, imagination, fancy, common sense, and judgement.
Nay, if our wits run the wild-goose chase, I am done; for
thou hast more of the wild goose in one of thy wits than, I am
sure, I have in my whole five.
'the audience must have been familiar with the real game, in which one horseman executed a series of difficult manoeuvres which others had to repeat in close succession'. (Thus Romeo's obscure "swits and spurs"—that is, "switch and spurs," to control one's baffled steed.)
The game was probably named after the flight pattern of a flock of wild geese, which obediently follows the often erratic lead of the head goose. Thus, perhaps, the latter-day sense of the phrase: the pursuit of an evasive leader evolved into the pursuit of an impossible or illusory goal.
Mercutio also refers to his "five wits." He doesn't mean the five senses, but rather the corresponding intellectual faculties: memory, imagination, fancy, common sense, and judgement.
& ) exit stage left
Last edited by Kharon; 25th Jan 2012 at 07:45. Reason: Payback
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Nimrod
Blackhand, such an obtuse attitude from an island bush mechanic, you need to go back to doing what you do best - Plane spotting with Ken B and repairing remote control helicopters.
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Really?
Since this thread started, I decided it was time I maybe did some research on the subject. I have tried to remain uninterested, and what I have been reading just makes me want to 
This was reinforced today when I visited work to drop off my paperwork ( I am off on workcover atm) and the general manager was spruiking how we needed to investigate means to prevent an injury like mine happening again. My ears pricked up immediatley, this sounds like SMS!!!! Truth be known, if they spent some money in the shop my injury would have never happened. Lets see, buy a NEW $200 tool, or have a tradie repair it? Sure, the skin area will heal, the muscle will heal, the severed vein will heal, then damaged (and currently infected) tendon will heal, but i will never get any feeling back in the damaged area of my hand, eventually the brain will shut off those nerves that send sparks and embers up my arm at any contact.
A case of spend money on SMS or simply spend some money on clear and obvious risks? Maybe a simplistic view, but I am somewhat bitter.
Quoting Kharon
From my ponderings over large amounts of text, CASA don't want you to buy an 'off the shelf' product and do minor tailoring. They seem to want you to build your own SMS, based upon some 'regulatory????' guidelines. This is how the Quality Assurance (QA) system began. You know the one where you get a fancy sticker with 4 ticks and ISO2012 written on it.
Yes, I agree to a point. The problem is the time needed to go about implementation in this manner becomes extremely cost prohibitive. I think it is an area where CASA could provide much assistance to operators. I.e provide a one size for THEIR operation that is easily modified for approval.... i.e small operation, as an example YCEM vs YLIL's primary operators.
Both are flight training organisations. CASA could provide them with a template, they could cut out the bits they don't do (one operator doesn't do night or charter) and CASA could sign it off. Or they could delve deeper for changes that better suit them. The crux tho is that most of the work is already done for them. Good use of taxpayer money I reckon.
Agreed, tho if its anything like the QA system, then changing your staff over is the quickest method of generating the etho's.
Damm skippy!!!! CASA needs to be pro-active here. If it gets stuffed, then the reasons need to be explored, learnt from and then passed on to other operators (shoe ain't that SMS!!!). IF Casa take a regulatory approach to this, then it is clear they only want to regulate, which has no benefit to anyone, and the whole SMS thing will become a muddied mush pit.
20 cents? don't tell me its gone up again!!! no-one tells me anything!
On a lighter note. This whole SMS deal sniffs heavily of the QA system. It was great when it first started. I can only see it getting watered down in the future, and the whole exercise will become pointless.
I'll give you an example from a company I spent enough time with to see thier QA system go squat (and they are all no different now).
I'm in the auto repair industry (body)
Vehicle arrives.
Recieving employee goes over vehicle with owner, noting unrelated damage and full electrical tests are carried out. Owner agree's and signs.
Repair processes completed.
Technician, finalises the job, checks for no extra damage, and that all accident related electricals are fixed, and all other systems that have been handled in the repair work as per factory. If owner has requested other repairs, they are also checked off.
Today,
Car comes in, straight to a technician.
He repairs to the job sheet and signs off.
Owner complains that the L/H front parker WAS working before the car got slammed up the arse.
no recourse, workshop fixes for free. (and thats a CHEAP example)
Sorry but SMS sniffs highly of QA and I see it going the same way
This was reinforced today when I visited work to drop off my paperwork ( I am off on workcover atm) and the general manager was spruiking how we needed to investigate means to prevent an injury like mine happening again. My ears pricked up immediatley, this sounds like SMS!!!! Truth be known, if they spent some money in the shop my injury would have never happened. Lets see, buy a NEW $200 tool, or have a tradie repair it? Sure, the skin area will heal, the muscle will heal, the severed vein will heal, then damaged (and currently infected) tendon will heal, but i will never get any feeling back in the damaged area of my hand, eventually the brain will shut off those nerves that send sparks and embers up my arm at any contact.
A case of spend money on SMS or simply spend some money on clear and obvious risks? Maybe a simplistic view, but I am somewhat bitter.
Quoting Kharon
Just for starters - the debate over the method to be used needs to be finalised. Some believe the 'big' company approach is the only one. CASA do frequently knock back anything that does not fit 'their' model. You can of course at great expense 'buy' an off the shelf job which will go through like grass through a goose. Hmmm, I wonder; nah couldn't be.
I believe a SMS should be tailor made to each operation, hand crafted with care and grown from within.
Both are flight training organisations. CASA could provide them with a template, they could cut out the bits they don't do (one operator doesn't do night or charter) and CASA could sign it off. Or they could delve deeper for changes that better suit them. The crux tho is that most of the work is already done for them. Good use of taxpayer money I reckon.
In a very short period it becomes a natural part of the ethos and operating culture of the company.
To make the thing rock there are several things which cannot be part of the system. One of these is fear. Fear of prosecution, fear of job loss, fear of ridicule, fear for reputation.
The next trick is classification, assessment, recording, action and education.
$00.20 AUD.
$00.20 AUD.
On a lighter note. This whole SMS deal sniffs heavily of the QA system. It was great when it first started. I can only see it getting watered down in the future, and the whole exercise will become pointless.
I'll give you an example from a company I spent enough time with to see thier QA system go squat (and they are all no different now).
I'm in the auto repair industry (body)
Vehicle arrives.
Recieving employee goes over vehicle with owner, noting unrelated damage and full electrical tests are carried out. Owner agree's and signs.
Repair processes completed.
Technician, finalises the job, checks for no extra damage, and that all accident related electricals are fixed, and all other systems that have been handled in the repair work as per factory. If owner has requested other repairs, they are also checked off.
Today,
Car comes in, straight to a technician.
He repairs to the job sheet and signs off.
Owner complains that the L/H front parker WAS working before the car got slammed up the arse.
no recourse, workshop fixes for free. (and thats a CHEAP example)
Sorry but SMS sniffs highly of QA and I see it going the same way
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QA different animal ??.
jas24:
the general manager was spruiking how we needed to investigate means to prevent an injury like mine happening again.
the general manager was spruiking how we needed to investigate means to prevent an injury like mine happening again.
The way I understand it the SMS aims to provides a method of 'formalising' reporting and recording the things we do almost everyday when 'looking' at the risks involved. Risk assessment is a thing every creature does, almost a reflex; mostly the SMS appears to focus and formalise that analysis, record evidence that we did the analysis and provide the lessons to prevent a repeat.
But, seems it's a tough row to hoe. For instance, crossing the road; when you define the risk level and operational complexity of this seemingly simple task the real beast appears.
Try and draft a SOP to cover it, so that the kids without adult supervision could cross any road anywhere, any time and remain in one piece. If you got a dozen or so people to draft one each the 'bulk' of the thing would be probably contain the same basic stuff, but the value given to each identified risk element would vary and the amount of risk elements would probably be quite different. Bear in mind one man's high level risk is another's stroll in the park. It gets subjective really quickly.
So, it seems to me the problem for any NAA, operator, or individual is how much is too much and how much do we need. For instance, Flight Safety Foundation (bless 'em) offer a free, simple, very effective way to analyse CFIT risk. Last I looked 2 of the three pages allow the operator to develop a CFIT 'rating' for the operations conducted. The third page allows the flight crew to assess their operation against the company number to determine if they at a higher risk value than the 'norm'. Cost nothing takes about 10 minutes to do the first bit and 2 minutes the last. Not too many GA operators bother with it, but they are potentially (theoretically) in the highest risk bracket.
Speedy recovery Jas.
Selah.
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you need to go back to doing what you do best - Plane spotting with Ken B and repairing remote control helicopters.
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Mr. Blackened hand
Other than singing CASA,s praises, and impertinant vitriol what have you ever contributed of any value the discussion. Given that from your comments you are quite possibly a CASA weany are we to understand that CASA has no particular interest in discussing how to construct an effect Safety Management System?. Says it all I spose, and there I thought CASA was interested in Safety.
With regards to Willies, perhaps if you have a "significant other" they should obtain you some "Viagra Light", that will get it just hard enough so you dont fill your boots when you have a Pee!!
Other than singing CASA,s praises, and impertinant vitriol what have you ever contributed of any value the discussion. Given that from your comments you are quite possibly a CASA weany are we to understand that CASA has no particular interest in discussing how to construct an effect Safety Management System?. Says it all I spose, and there I thought CASA was interested in Safety.
With regards to Willies, perhaps if you have a "significant other" they should obtain you some "Viagra Light", that will get it just hard enough so you dont fill your boots when you have a Pee!!
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Interesting?
I must head out the club tomorrow and try to find the article I was reading dated circa 2002 about the growth and impending implementation of SMS. Might have to read a few mags to find it again. ah the joy. Mind you it was a casa publication.
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'tis tricky stuff.
There are some bloody good articles on the net, written by 'experts' which are serious food for thought and good solid theory. CASA articles I leave up to your good judgement.
Once you get away from the grandiose 'statements' and plough your way through the stultifying pages of 'safety speak'; you run screaming out into the daylight and Wallop, there it is; reality.
To get a system working is not too arduous a task, good paper trail, solid support from everyone etc. etc. No cracks so far. Just for fun lets follow young "Spotty" through a day at Dodgy Ops.
Car park ; big puddle in a hole in the car park tarmac. Reportable?.
Front door; handle loose, screws missing, possible accident. Reportable?.
Flight planning, ERSA out date (just). Reportable?.
Hanger; apprentice stood on a milk crate doing engine compression test. Reportable?.
Ramp; new chum driving the tug, no tarmac licence, no training. Reportable?.
Before Spotty gets to the Daily, some one has just picked up half a days work. Fist the 'risk' element has to be assessed, classified, recorded and a return receipt has to be sent to young Spotty (Thanks mate). This before the rest of the requirements of the system are met. But this is not the really fun part.
Oh !, what ?, yeah mate, start her up, be there in a minute.
Once you get away from the grandiose 'statements' and plough your way through the stultifying pages of 'safety speak'; you run screaming out into the daylight and Wallop, there it is; reality.
To get a system working is not too arduous a task, good paper trail, solid support from everyone etc. etc. No cracks so far. Just for fun lets follow young "Spotty" through a day at Dodgy Ops.
Car park ; big puddle in a hole in the car park tarmac. Reportable?.
Front door; handle loose, screws missing, possible accident. Reportable?.
Flight planning, ERSA out date (just). Reportable?.
Hanger; apprentice stood on a milk crate doing engine compression test. Reportable?.
Ramp; new chum driving the tug, no tarmac licence, no training. Reportable?.
Before Spotty gets to the Daily, some one has just picked up half a days work. Fist the 'risk' element has to be assessed, classified, recorded and a return receipt has to be sent to young Spotty (Thanks mate). This before the rest of the requirements of the system are met. But this is not the really fun part.
Oh !, what ?, yeah mate, start her up, be there in a minute.
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K; you've raised a good point here and one which is dear to my heart. SMS which are overly complex, with unworkable requirements and or not contextual are of doubtful value. Input < output! Junk in = Junk out!
The SMS's that I've had anything to do with are sometimes ineffectual because people DO NOT report the important operational stuff! Reporting a trip hazard may be useful, but reporting a fuel mis-management issue is real important.
The SMS's that I've had anything to do with are sometimes ineffectual because people DO NOT report the important operational stuff! Reporting a trip hazard may be useful, but reporting a fuel mis-management issue is real important.
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Selcal, I totally agree with you, we all make mistakes and learn from them.
It is vitally important that those mistakes get shared, that should run to the heart of safety management.
Unfortunately, Australian regulations set as they are in the criminal code, and a reactive regulator,spreads a mantle of fear over the industry.
CASA, I believe are a severe impediment to that sort of reporting. The bigger companies with political clout, large wallets and strong legal departments can perhaps deter the regulator's zeal, but pity the smaller operator or individual. To leave a paper trail of some infraction or perceived infraction is fraught with danger, literally putting your head on the chopping block.
The CASA apologists will no doubt say this could never happen, unfortunately in truth, it can and it does.
It is vitally important that those mistakes get shared, that should run to the heart of safety management.
Unfortunately, Australian regulations set as they are in the criminal code, and a reactive regulator,spreads a mantle of fear over the industry.
CASA, I believe are a severe impediment to that sort of reporting. The bigger companies with political clout, large wallets and strong legal departments can perhaps deter the regulator's zeal, but pity the smaller operator or individual. To leave a paper trail of some infraction or perceived infraction is fraught with danger, literally putting your head on the chopping block.
The CASA apologists will no doubt say this could never happen, unfortunately in truth, it can and it does.
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The mystery of the first filter.
So here's young Spotty contemplating the Daily, the Ops guy shouts over, "2 hour delay Spots, have a coffee mate", so being a good lad he toddles off to the crew room and thinks now would be a good time to put in those reports. Thought to action – and the electrons start to flow. System activated. Next stop the first filter.
Rep. 1 – big puddle. OH&S issue really, surely. Filter by pass open, flick.
Rep. 2, Door knob. – OH&S issue really, surely. Filter by pass open, flick.
Rep 3. ERSA – now who does that ?, scratches in Ops manual (A1.453) Chief Pilot responsible, duty pilot job, Email sent – "company ERSA out of date". CP on leave, duty pilot back from charter Wednesday then rostered for two days off. Filter failure.
Not to labour the point here, but I belive you can see that the 'treatment' received at the first filter is critical. If we gave Spotty a bad day, the reports are potentially endless. Which are operationally urgent, which will keep for a while, which are ATSB issues, which can fry the company, which can kill. The crux, for my two bobs worth rests right here.
If the first filter can be properly rigged, there is a chance that a 'company' SMS can work very well indeed. But the pitfalls are many, the scope for subjective variation of definition infinite and it's a bloody risky adventure for an operator.
The security of the information received is critical, in a perfect world, this should not rate a mention, but operators I have talked to never, ever fail to bring it up as a matter of some concern. Complete internal anonymity is almost impossible to achieve, even in an operation the size of Qantas, but I don't see that as a significant problem. The notion of external anonymity must have some serious 'legal' clout if the system is to work and to me, that seems to lacking.
For example I have seen two letters and discussed another couple of anecdotal reports of CASA instructing a CP to 'cc' them in on any report to the ATSB. Not only is this naughty, but it's counterproductive if you want a genuine, real life SMS that prevents incidents, helps pass good information to the troops and is to be genuinely worth the trouble and expense.
Yup, but is it (a) helpful information, (b) a signed confession or (c) a back road to hammer the operator fuel policy (legal like).
Agreed – so do you become as crafty as the enemy and make it pointless, or offer your testicles to Gods of fate ??.
Definitely need a coffee NOW.
Rep. 1 – big puddle. OH&S issue really, surely. Filter by pass open, flick.
Rep. 2, Door knob. – OH&S issue really, surely. Filter by pass open, flick.
Rep 3. ERSA – now who does that ?, scratches in Ops manual (A1.453) Chief Pilot responsible, duty pilot job, Email sent – "company ERSA out of date". CP on leave, duty pilot back from charter Wednesday then rostered for two days off. Filter failure.
Not to labour the point here, but I belive you can see that the 'treatment' received at the first filter is critical. If we gave Spotty a bad day, the reports are potentially endless. Which are operationally urgent, which will keep for a while, which are ATSB issues, which can fry the company, which can kill. The crux, for my two bobs worth rests right here.
If the first filter can be properly rigged, there is a chance that a 'company' SMS can work very well indeed. But the pitfalls are many, the scope for subjective variation of definition infinite and it's a bloody risky adventure for an operator.
The security of the information received is critical, in a perfect world, this should not rate a mention, but operators I have talked to never, ever fail to bring it up as a matter of some concern. Complete internal anonymity is almost impossible to achieve, even in an operation the size of Qantas, but I don't see that as a significant problem. The notion of external anonymity must have some serious 'legal' clout if the system is to work and to me, that seems to lacking.
For example I have seen two letters and discussed another couple of anecdotal reports of CASA instructing a CP to 'cc' them in on any report to the ATSB. Not only is this naughty, but it's counterproductive if you want a genuine, real life SMS that prevents incidents, helps pass good information to the troops and is to be genuinely worth the trouble and expense.
Selcal - Reporting a trip hazard may be useful, but reporting a fuel mis-management issue is real important.
TB - Unfortunately, Australian regulations set as they are in the criminal code, and a reactive regulator, spreads a mantle of fear over the industry.
Definitely need a coffee NOW.
From my ponderings over large amounts of text, CASA don't want you to buy an 'off the shelf' product and do minor tailoring. They seem to want you to build your own SMS, based upon some 'regulatory????' guidelines.
Wonderful theory, all the right politically correct sentiment emanates from CASA PR , but absolutely no relation to what happens in practice, which is:
------ Go to a CASA preferred SMS "preferred supplier", who will run you off a cut and paste from his ( no her's of whom I am aware) CD, topped and tailed with your company name, and an eye watering invoice,
and CASA will give it the nod, as it "must comply". One wonderful example of real world aviation, Australian style: A very credible tailored SMS, all developed from the CASA CD etc, and ticked off by a real ( recognized internationally) expert, an ICAO auditor, who actually teaches SMS to NAAs, as well as advising operators.
Unsurprisingly, this was summarily rejected by "the" CASA "expert", whose training and experience in the field was ( as established in the AAT) to say the least, embarrassingly limited ---- but, he was the CASA "decision maker".
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Expert?
There are very few SMS experts who have actually implemented the system from scratch and understand the challenges that exercise presents. To do it properly takes time and its actually not easy. There's plenty of guys who write tomes and throw them over the fence at the customer.
I'd hazard a guess that there are even fewer CASA inspectors who have implemented a SMS and have a corresponding pragmatic approach!
I'd hazard a guess that there are even fewer CASA inspectors who have implemented a SMS and have a corresponding pragmatic approach!
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Selcal - I'd hazard a guess that there are even fewer CASA inspectors who have implemented a SMS and have a corresponding pragmatic approach!
From my research, discussions etc. this subject provides one of the best 'over a beer' topics ever. The subject matter cannot be summarised easily : but the 'cure' can be.
Part of the qualification regime to be an FOI should be a critically examined version of "their" operations manual, including a SMS section. I have now for many years kept a collection of the written requests made by various FOI for changes, amendments and alterations of Company documents, many of which have delayed the 'acceptance' of variations to or the issue of Air Operator privileges. Some are hilarious, others dumb, some are dangerous and border on illegal; if it were not so expensive, time wasting and bloody tragic I could probably have a laugh. Started the collection because I honestly believed one FOI letter was a joke, it wasn't.
We could spend some of the newly minted 89 million and hire one or two real experts and do a 10 day course, you know a training course of some value which would provide a measurable safety outcome.
Selah.