RAA training at YMMB?
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RAA training at YMMB?
I have a friend who just did a T.I.F at Moorabbin in a Jabiru with Melbourne Aviation an start his RAA Certificate
I thought that only GA could fly and train at Moorabbin ??
I thought that only GA could fly and train at Moorabbin ??
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I was waiting for this discussion to appear.
As of 2 weeks ago their "308?" (the approval for them to operate as solo RA-Aus students in CTA) approval was only "a couple of days away."
So the answer is, yes they can.
Melbourne Aviation is in the same building that used to house Oasis Flight training that was forcibly "relocated" from Point Cook a few years back. I am unsure if they are the same company.
They also have 2 x Liberty XL2's on their fleet information on the web-site. I heard that these aircraft were purchased 2nd hand from an Asian country and there have allegedly been large costs involved in getting them on the Australian register, so much so that they should have purchased them locally from the pool available here at the moment.
As of 2 weeks ago their "308?" (the approval for them to operate as solo RA-Aus students in CTA) approval was only "a couple of days away."
So the answer is, yes they can.
Melbourne Aviation is in the same building that used to house Oasis Flight training that was forcibly "relocated" from Point Cook a few years back. I am unsure if they are the same company.
They also have 2 x Liberty XL2's on their fleet information on the web-site. I heard that these aircraft were purchased 2nd hand from an Asian country and there have allegedly been large costs involved in getting them on the Australian register, so much so that they should have purchased them locally from the pool available here at the moment.
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Unless something goes wrong or some regulation changes, one could expect that the approval would indeed be permanent. There would be a significant impact to them if they lost the approval later on.
There are other schools running at Bankstown etc in Class D under a similar arrangement so it certainly can be successful if run well.
I am not sure if Oasis ever had approval, so this might be a first for Moorabbin. I do recall a few years ago that they (Oasis) were doing first solo's etc at fields outside Moorabbin but they may have got it later.
There are other schools running at Bankstown etc in Class D under a similar arrangement so it certainly can be successful if run well.
I am not sure if Oasis ever had approval, so this might be a first for Moorabbin. I do recall a few years ago that they (Oasis) were doing first solo's etc at fields outside Moorabbin but they may have got it later.
Does the limit on no further training past their pilot cert in a CTR unless they hold a PPL and medical still apply?
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It would have to, because you can't fly an RA-Aus registered aircraft in CTA/Class D etc without a PPL and a medical. If that wasn't the case, then you could fly on a RA-Aus cert without a PPL by hiring from that place specifically and I can't see that working very well 
One could assume that the excemption allows them to get away with it because they are under direct supervision during their solo flight.
I suspect they are using the RA-Aus registered aircraft to reduce costs for the PPL so in the end it won't matter for most piots, but that being said if you went there exclusively for RA-Aus training you would feel somewhat ripped to find out that you can't fly from the airport that you trained (including solo) at!
One could assume that the excemption allows them to get away with it because they are under direct supervision during their solo flight.
I suspect they are using the RA-Aus registered aircraft to reduce costs for the PPL so in the end it won't matter for most piots, but that being said if you went there exclusively for RA-Aus training you would feel somewhat ripped to find out that you can't fly from the airport that you trained (including solo) at!
Similar scenario prevails at Archerfield; an RA school with a loose association with one of the GA schools has opened its doors. I believe plenty hoops to jump through for the exemption and as you say no hire and fly down the line, but as an intro to a PPL it works pretty well. They require a medical for solo flight too.
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These exemptions say: "student or pilot under the control of the operator", so clear as mud.
Both RA-Aus and CASA are fully aware that under all these exemptions, the operators allow hire and fly with passenger at the end of training and they have not taken issue with it.
So expect it to be the same here; "graduates" will be able to hire and fly in CTA from this school. Obviously, they can't go hire a jab at Tooradin and fly into the CTA because they would in no way shape or form be "under the control" of Melbourne Aviation.
Interestingly enough, most people assume this is only for the local Delta. That's not true, it just says "controlled airspace". Nothing stopping you from going into the MEL Charlie, or even flying to SY.
Both RA-Aus and CASA are fully aware that under all these exemptions, the operators allow hire and fly with passenger at the end of training and they have not taken issue with it.
So expect it to be the same here; "graduates" will be able to hire and fly in CTA from this school. Obviously, they can't go hire a jab at Tooradin and fly into the CTA because they would in no way shape or form be "under the control" of Melbourne Aviation.
Interestingly enough, most people assume this is only for the local Delta. That's not true, it just says "controlled airspace". Nothing stopping you from going into the MEL Charlie, or even flying to SY.
Re Mr 'XXX's' comment....
" I suspect they are using the RA-Aus registered aircraft to reduce costs for the PPL"
So, for a TRAINING (Commercial) organisation at a class 'D' location, -
Apart from the fuel consumption, and possible purchase price, what are the other savings to be had, assuming that the 'infrastructure costs' would be the same for both types of school? (Lets assume vs a C-152)
I mean, instructors need to be paid - I would assume at the same rate...(?)
Building rents, and assoc. on goings.... no change here...(?)
At a 'country' OCTA location for the same organisation -
Any more savings over a VH registered aircraft?
Cheers
" I suspect they are using the RA-Aus registered aircraft to reduce costs for the PPL"
So, for a TRAINING (Commercial) organisation at a class 'D' location, -
Apart from the fuel consumption, and possible purchase price, what are the other savings to be had, assuming that the 'infrastructure costs' would be the same for both types of school? (Lets assume vs a C-152)
I mean, instructors need to be paid - I would assume at the same rate...(?)
Building rents, and assoc. on goings.... no change here...(?)
At a 'country' OCTA location for the same organisation -
Any more savings over a VH registered aircraft?
Cheers
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What I see happening is smart schools training all students under RAA to the CASA GA standard and sitting the relevant flight tests for issue of GA licences along the way (and RAA). Might also help out with the odd show cause notice in being able to continue to operate in spite of CASA 
You can have a jab registered under VH and RAA and there are many LSAs with a CSU and cruise speed >120 Kts.
We shall see hey
You can have a jab registered under VH and RAA and there are many LSAs with a CSU and cruise speed >120 Kts.
We shall see hey
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what are the other savings to be had
An RA-Aus Level 2 mechanic can maintain the aircraft thus not requiring a LAME. That being said though, you're probably talking about a difference of $20 to $30 an hour (if that) for the L2 versus LAME, possibly less, so your point rings true, there probably isn't a huge saving. Many RA-Aus operators boast LAME maintenance so it does make you wonder if there is much of a difference in the end. Same transponder checks, still needs oil and filters changing, still uses tyres probably at a faster rate than aviation grade tyres, but engines are cheaper. Probably a percentage cheaper but not massively significant, particularly when operated from metropolis.
Bas, I can't see this being correct as much as it sounds logical:
So expect it to be the same here; "graduates" will be able to hire and fly in CTA from this school.
So expect it to be the same here; "graduates" will be able to hire and fly in CTA from this school. Obviously, they can't go hire a jab at Tooradin and fly into the CTA because they would in no way shape or form be "under the control" of Melbourne Aviation.
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Maintenance is the big one plus the recommended labour hours for many RA-Aus aircraft are less than their GA counterparts (particularly for a Jabiru).
An RA-Aus Level 2 mechanic can maintain the aircraft thus not requiring a LAME. That being said though, you're probably talking about a difference of $20 to $30 an hour (if that) for the L2 versus LAME, possibly less, so your point rings true, there probably isn't a huge saving. Many RA-Aus operators boast LAME maintenance so it does make you wonder if there is much of a difference in the end. Same transponder checks, still needs oil and filters changing, still uses tyres probably at a faster rate than aviation grade tyres, but engines are cheaper. Probably a percentage cheaper but not massively significant, particularly when operated from metropolis.
An RA-Aus Level 2 mechanic can maintain the aircraft thus not requiring a LAME. That being said though, you're probably talking about a difference of $20 to $30 an hour (if that) for the L2 versus LAME, possibly less, so your point rings true, there probably isn't a huge saving. Many RA-Aus operators boast LAME maintenance so it does make you wonder if there is much of a difference in the end. Same transponder checks, still needs oil and filters changing, still uses tyres probably at a faster rate than aviation grade tyres, but engines are cheaper. Probably a percentage cheaper but not massively significant, particularly when operated from metropolis.
Literally your cost for RA-Aus registered A/C maintenance is close to zero (except the cost of parts) vs $2500 per 100hrs plus cost of parts.
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That would imply that I can go and get a check-ride with Melbourne Aviation in a Jabiru, then continue to fly that Jabiru into Class D Moorabbin without a PPL. I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that.
But once they have their pilot cert, (ie have "graduated"), won't they have to fly from Tooradin or Tyabb unless they hold a PPL?
Like I said: the rules are clear as mud. I am not saying what the rules are or how they should be interpreted; I'm just saying what those with the exemption are doing with it in the real world.
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Sorry I'll just have to pick you up on that one:
If the aircraft is being used for Hire or Reward it must be maintained by an RA-Aus Level 2 mechanic.
Owner maintenene is only permitted for aircraft not used for hire or reward. As I stated earlier, costs may be a bit less, but certainly not zero for labour. The annoying part for Moorabbin is that there aren't RA-Aus aircraft there as a general rule, so there's not likely to be any RA-Aus exclusive mechanics, so they would have to bring in all of their maintenance kit or find a facility - hence up goes the hourly rate and down go the savings.
You are correct, RA-Aus aircraft thus not require a LAME. Hence anyone with RA-Aus Licence can sign off, e.g. Owner of the aircraft, School, Pilot.
Literally your cost for RA-Aus registered A/C maintenance is close to zero (except the cost of parts) vs $2500 per 100hrs plus cost of parts.
Literally your cost for RA-Aus registered A/C maintenance is close to zero (except the cost of parts) vs $2500 per 100hrs plus cost of parts.
If the aircraft is being used for Hire or Reward it must be maintained by an RA-Aus Level 2 mechanic.
Owner maintenene is only permitted for aircraft not used for hire or reward. As I stated earlier, costs may be a bit less, but certainly not zero for labour. The annoying part for Moorabbin is that there aren't RA-Aus aircraft there as a general rule, so there's not likely to be any RA-Aus exclusive mechanics, so they would have to bring in all of their maintenance kit or find a facility - hence up goes the hourly rate and down go the savings.
Yeah, why not let them conduct CPL training, night flights, IFR and aeros while we're at it?
If you want to play with the "big boys" (for lack of a better description), get some proper training, get a transponder and go for it.
If you can't be bothered studying for a PPL, doing 2 hrs IF, getting your nav standard up to PPL level (if required), getting recommended and proving you can pass the test, I for one don't want you bumbling around while ATC has to send everyone else around you out of your way.
Seen plenty of nav endos pulled by an RA school because of sub-standard skills. Not saying this is the case everywhere, but every other pilot flying a VH registered aircraft has had to do it. Why shouldn't RA?
XXX,
surely (no Flying High jokes, please), if you approached a couple of LAMEs at MB, there will be one who flies RA or at least would be willing to get the quals required if it means some extra business?
Baswell,
I believe the gist of the argument is that if there is no nearby facility nearby and OCTA for RA training, approval may be granted to train up to but no further than the RA pilot's cert. After that, you need to hold PPL airspace qualifications to continue operation into and from CTRs. An RA school cannot allow you to do this regardless of whether you did your initial training with them or not.
If you want to play with the "big boys" (for lack of a better description), get some proper training, get a transponder and go for it.
If you can't be bothered studying for a PPL, doing 2 hrs IF, getting your nav standard up to PPL level (if required), getting recommended and proving you can pass the test, I for one don't want you bumbling around while ATC has to send everyone else around you out of your way.
Seen plenty of nav endos pulled by an RA school because of sub-standard skills. Not saying this is the case everywhere, but every other pilot flying a VH registered aircraft has had to do it. Why shouldn't RA?
XXX,
surely (no Flying High jokes, please), if you approached a couple of LAMEs at MB, there will be one who flies RA or at least would be willing to get the quals required if it means some extra business?
Baswell,
I believe the gist of the argument is that if there is no nearby facility nearby and OCTA for RA training, approval may be granted to train up to but no further than the RA pilot's cert. After that, you need to hold PPL airspace qualifications to continue operation into and from CTRs. An RA school cannot allow you to do this regardless of whether you did your initial training with them or not.
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 16th Jan 2012 at 09:59.
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Yep sure, qualification is simply a tick in a box plus a few hundo's for a qualified LAME to get started as an L2. The only issue you'll come across though is that you expect an L2 to be cheaper than a LAME.
Or you could try Help Garden Lawn Mower repairs.
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