Fuel quality check on Aussie airliners!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Townsville
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fuel quality check on Aussie airliners!
Quick question.
I have never seen or maybe miss seeing if the PIC checks the quality of fuel, via each tank draining point either first flight of the day and/or after each refueling. As the PIC has the sole responsibility, can he or she delegate this responsibility to another crew member to whom ever does the walk around?
As far as I am aware it takes about 4 times longer for the water to separate from JET A1 than normal AVGAS, but with this being the case, I am yet to hear of delays due to fuel quality checks. If anyone could fill me in on their company procedures and who does what to ensure fuel quality assurance, that would be great!
Also... just updated my Jepps again which is extremely time consuming, let alone boring, however, who updates all the onboard charts to the flight crew at each amendment service? I'm sure the crew wouldn't, so would the airline get a whole new crate load of newly updated charts sent to them at each amendment period or is there some people solely employed by the company to manage and control the updates for each aircraft. Now that for sure would be the worlds worst job for sure!
Cheers
I have never seen or maybe miss seeing if the PIC checks the quality of fuel, via each tank draining point either first flight of the day and/or after each refueling. As the PIC has the sole responsibility, can he or she delegate this responsibility to another crew member to whom ever does the walk around?
As far as I am aware it takes about 4 times longer for the water to separate from JET A1 than normal AVGAS, but with this being the case, I am yet to hear of delays due to fuel quality checks. If anyone could fill me in on their company procedures and who does what to ensure fuel quality assurance, that would be great!
Also... just updated my Jepps again which is extremely time consuming, let alone boring, however, who updates all the onboard charts to the flight crew at each amendment service? I'm sure the crew wouldn't, so would the airline get a whole new crate load of newly updated charts sent to them at each amendment period or is there some people solely employed by the company to manage and control the updates for each aircraft. Now that for sure would be the worlds worst job for sure!
Cheers
The engineers do fuel drain checks each night as part of their daily checks.
Jepps are amended by an outside contractor (sometimes Jeppesen themselves) or by the airline ops department, in larger airlines there are two sets for each aircraft (one in the aircraft one being amended) these get swapped out at each amendment cycle. In the UK I have seen amendments for one or two airports on the route network given out to the crew to put in the books, this was in addition to the amendment service.
Jepps are amended by an outside contractor (sometimes Jeppesen themselves) or by the airline ops department, in larger airlines there are two sets for each aircraft (one in the aircraft one being amended) these get swapped out at each amendment cycle. In the UK I have seen amendments for one or two airports on the route network given out to the crew to put in the books, this was in addition to the amendment service.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Townsville
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Right, I understand the engineers have their checks, but what about the flight crew. What are their checks and requirements both at the start of the day and after refueling?
The buck really stops with the PIC, does it not?
The buck really stops with the PIC, does it not?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia, maybe
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The fuel companies check their tanks (Storage and Tanker) for the presence of water etc.
Water detection paste or other similar methods are used to test fuel samples for water.
If clear of water and other contaminants, the fuel is supplied to the aircraft.
As you alluded to, water is usually suspended in the Avtur and draining from the lowest point in a fuel tank is not a definitive check for the presence of water. That is why it has to be tested before it is put into the aircraft.
The PIC is indemnified by the fuel record carried onboard the aircraft, that the fuel has been tested for and found free of contaminents by the fuel suppliers.
When all of these procedures have been verified by the PIC or delegate, they 'sign' for the fuel (Type, Quantity, Quality, SG and Loading).
Hope this helps.
Water detection paste or other similar methods are used to test fuel samples for water.
If clear of water and other contaminants, the fuel is supplied to the aircraft.
As you alluded to, water is usually suspended in the Avtur and draining from the lowest point in a fuel tank is not a definitive check for the presence of water. That is why it has to be tested before it is put into the aircraft.
The PIC is indemnified by the fuel record carried onboard the aircraft, that the fuel has been tested for and found free of contaminents by the fuel suppliers.
When all of these procedures have been verified by the PIC or delegate, they 'sign' for the fuel (Type, Quantity, Quality, SG and Loading).
Hope this helps.
What are their checks and requirements both at the start of the day and after refueling?
No drain required as fuel is checked by the suppliers for contaminants prior to and sometimes during refuelling.
Water in jet a1 tanks and fuel quality is less of an issue with turbines, water won't stop or make the turbine run rough, the main concern is with microbiological growth in he tank and corrosion from that look up bae146 wing spar corrosion..
The buck really stops with the PIC, does it not?
The engineers do it IAW the system of maintenance.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At one major airline at least the Jepp amendments are done by a specific technical section who look after ensuring all of the manuals on the aircraft are up to date.
As pilots are taught at CPL level that they can perform a daily inspection on the Piper Warrior they are flying, many assume that means they can "daily" any aircraft.
In fact, that authority stems from Civil Aviation Regulation 42ZC, and is only for Class B aircraft, as specified in Schedule 8 of the CARs.
For transport category aircraft (Class A), the daily can not generally be performed by an endorsed pilot (i.e. without SPECIFIC authorisation) - it must be completed by an engineer under the schedule of maintenance.
So to answer the original question:
The pilot doesn't do the daily, which the fuel checks are part of, because a pilot on a Class A aircraft is not permitted to. It's the engineer's job, and the only requirement for the pilot is to check that the daily inspection certificate has been signed for that day (by the engineer) before operating the aircraft.
In fact, that authority stems from Civil Aviation Regulation 42ZC, and is only for Class B aircraft, as specified in Schedule 8 of the CARs.
For transport category aircraft (Class A), the daily can not generally be performed by an endorsed pilot (i.e. without SPECIFIC authorisation) - it must be completed by an engineer under the schedule of maintenance.
So to answer the original question:
I have never seen or maybe miss seeing if the PIC checks the quality of fuel, via each tank draining point either first flight of the day and/or after each refueling. As the PIC has the sole responsibility, can he or she delegate this responsibility to another crew member to whom ever does the walk around?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: AGL
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Water in jet a1 tanks and fuel quality is less of an issue with turbines, water won't stop or make the turbine run rough,"
Say What????? It sure won't run rough but it it won't run at all once a little water has interrupted fuel flow and put out the fire in the turbine. I'd prefer a rough running piston engine if it comes to running on water!
Say What????? It sure won't run rough but it it won't run at all once a little water has interrupted fuel flow and put out the fire in the turbine. I'd prefer a rough running piston engine if it comes to running on water!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Smog Central
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Checkboard As pilots are taught at CPL level that they can perform a daily inspection on the Piper Warrior they are flying, many assume that means they can "daily" any aircraft.
In fact, that authority stems from Civil Aviation Regulation 42ZC, and is only for Class B aircraft, as specified in Schedule 8 of the CARs.
For transport category aircraft (Class A), the daily can not generally be performed by an endorsed pilot (i.e. without SPECIFIC authorisation) - it must be completed by an engineer under the schedule of maintenance.
So to answer the original question:
Quote:
I have never seen or maybe miss seeing if the PIC checks the quality of fuel, via each tank draining point either first flight of the day and/or after each refueling. As the PIC has the sole responsibility, can he or she delegate this responsibility to another crew member to whom ever does the walk around?
The pilot doesn't do the daily, which the fuel checks are part of, because a pilot on a Class A aircraft is not permitted to. It's the engineer's job, and the only requirement for the pilot is to check that the daily inspection certificate has been signed for that day (by the engineer) before operating the aircraft
In fact, that authority stems from Civil Aviation Regulation 42ZC, and is only for Class B aircraft, as specified in Schedule 8 of the CARs.
For transport category aircraft (Class A), the daily can not generally be performed by an endorsed pilot (i.e. without SPECIFIC authorisation) - it must be completed by an engineer under the schedule of maintenance.
So to answer the original question:
Quote:
I have never seen or maybe miss seeing if the PIC checks the quality of fuel, via each tank draining point either first flight of the day and/or after each refueling. As the PIC has the sole responsibility, can he or she delegate this responsibility to another crew member to whom ever does the walk around?
The pilot doesn't do the daily, which the fuel checks are part of, because a pilot on a Class A aircraft is not permitted to. It's the engineer's job, and the only requirement for the pilot is to check that the daily inspection certificate has been signed for that day (by the engineer) before operating the aircraft
Fokker 50 lands (remote aerodrome) crew overnights. Went to dinner with the crew but no engineer. They depart the next day, no sign of an engineer.
Water in jet a1 tanks and fuel quality is less of an issue with turbines, water won't stop or make the turbine run rough
Notaplanegeek
The most logical/likely explanation is that the crew have been trained to do it.
I fly a transport cat aircraft and have authority to do it under the company maintenance system. I've been trained by a company in house training package.
The most logical/likely explanation is that the crew have been trained to do it.
I fly a transport cat aircraft and have authority to do it under the company maintenance system. I've been trained by a company in house training package.
Ok, scenario from what I have observed... Fokker 50 lands (remote aerodrome) crew overnights. Went to dinner with the crew but no engineer. They depart the next day, no sign of an engineer.
Note: While pilots can't do the daily on a Class A aircraft, they are still responsible for the pre-flight inspection, the "walk around", to check for bird strikes, ramp rash (damage from ground equipment), FOD damage (stones kicked up by the tyres, puncturing the wings/flaps) etc.
The requirement to complete water checks on turbine aircraft changed around 1997. Until then, in Ansett, a fuel drain was completed after each refuelling and a water test (syringe and pellet usually) completed. As the test isn't particularly valid after mixing up Avtur during refuelling (it needs time to settle) the CAOs changed, and the drain was no longer required.
Last edited by Checkboard; 19th Nov 2011 at 05:17.
The daily inspection for the company I fly for is valid for 36hrs, perhaps a lot of others have the same sort of system?
morno
morno
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In a hotel (again)
Age: 41
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JQ 508 MEL-SYD was delayed on Sat 19th for over an hour when they suspected they had water in the fuel second test after and hour revealed all OK and flight continued uneventfuly.
So I guess someone tests it.
So I guess someone tests it.
