Logging Co-Pilot Time in SP Operation
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Thanks to all who contributed. I think the answer lies in whether there is a requirement to have a co-pilot, arising from the POH, CASA Approved Ops Manual or CASA regs, such as ICUS.
No, I'm not at that stage yet, so i won't be doing a CRM anythime soon. I'm considering completing my training for ME and CIR where there are multi-eng charters and was wondering what opportunity there would be to increase time with co-pilot time.
I'll have to establish a sound reason before I jump in the RHS with a rating and start logging the time. I know that co-pilot time in a PA31 is not going to be very impressive, but at least its some kind of aeronautical experience.
Yes, I'll check the Ops manual, CP and CASA if I ever get that far!
Cheers,
PD
No, I'm not at that stage yet, so i won't be doing a CRM anythime soon. I'm considering completing my training for ME and CIR where there are multi-eng charters and was wondering what opportunity there would be to increase time with co-pilot time.
I'll have to establish a sound reason before I jump in the RHS with a rating and start logging the time. I know that co-pilot time in a PA31 is not going to be very impressive, but at least its some kind of aeronautical experience.
Yes, I'll check the Ops manual, CP and CASA if I ever get that far!
Cheers,
PD
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Damn straight? Yes, i have a decent haircut and a real day job earning more than I could earn in my dream job as a Dash 8 Cpt or B200 Air Ambulance. Just for the record, I'm not doing it for the money - its just a lifestyle change. I just like flying. Not interested in big shiny jets.
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Nobody has quoted the appropriate Regs and CASA definition. (Onya Capt Claret for referencing CAO 40.1.0 which gives some insight but it is not really intended for this purpose.)
CASA.GOV.AU Home>Operations>Individuals>Exams>Pilot Log Books:
Definitions
...
Co-pilot means all flight time while serving in any piloting capacity other than as pilot in command
Airservices Australia as "sponsored by CASA" Airservices Australia - Flying Guides & Publications - Special Operational Information
That's it. No more.
If you are serving in any piloting capacity other than as pilot in command you can log co-pilot, at least in Australia. Obviously IAW CAR 228 et al to serve in a piloting capacity you must be appropriately licensed, rated, endorsed, appointed or otherwise permitted.
Company SOPs do not matter, your AOC does not matter, your AFM does not matter.
You could have a small private operation taking photos of your own property in a C152 with two qualified pilots taking turns manipulating the controls whilst the other takes photos. One must be PIC and the other could log Co-Pilot. This is a bit laughable I know but somebody please feel free to prove me wrong... CITING ACTUAL AUSTRALIAN RULES.
Nighty night,
FRQ CB
PS I believe that CASA needs to get their interpretation into something with more weight than a flimsy definition on their website and an Airservices Australia document. Why can't they issue a CAO? Maybe because it's not a Safety matter; then again neither are a lot of those crazier CAOs. I think that they tried issuing an AIP/SUP or something once but that's not really appropriate.
CAR 1988 5.51 Personal log books
...
(2)CASA may give directions in writing requiring the holder of a flight crew licence, a special pilot licence or a certificate of validation to record the matters set out in the direction in his or her personal log book.
...
(2)CASA may give directions in writing requiring the holder of a flight crew licence, a special pilot licence or a certificate of validation to record the matters set out in the direction in his or her personal log book.
Definitions
...
Co-pilot means all flight time while serving in any piloting capacity other than as pilot in command
...
7. Recording of Flight Time.
...
d. Co-Pilot - all flight time while assigned as co-pilot or second officer. This flight time must not be added to Grand Total Hours or Total Aeronautical Experience when ICUS is logged.
7. Recording of Flight Time.
...
d. Co-Pilot - all flight time while assigned as co-pilot or second officer. This flight time must not be added to Grand Total Hours or Total Aeronautical Experience when ICUS is logged.
If you are serving in any piloting capacity other than as pilot in command you can log co-pilot, at least in Australia. Obviously IAW CAR 228 et al to serve in a piloting capacity you must be appropriately licensed, rated, endorsed, appointed or otherwise permitted.
Company SOPs do not matter, your AOC does not matter, your AFM does not matter.
You could have a small private operation taking photos of your own property in a C152 with two qualified pilots taking turns manipulating the controls whilst the other takes photos. One must be PIC and the other could log Co-Pilot. This is a bit laughable I know but somebody please feel free to prove me wrong... CITING ACTUAL AUSTRALIAN RULES.
Nighty night,
FRQ CB
PS I believe that CASA needs to get their interpretation into something with more weight than a flimsy definition on their website and an Airservices Australia document. Why can't they issue a CAO? Maybe because it's not a Safety matter; then again neither are a lot of those crazier CAOs. I think that they tried issuing an AIP/SUP or something once but that's not really appropriate.
Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo; 13th Oct 2011 at 15:05. Reason: Props to Capt Claret who actually did include some real rules.
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Copilot Time
I have had the question about logging copilot time when acting as a "safety pilot" for years. Let's use a SEL Cherokee as an example. The pilot is under the hood and practicing for his/her IFR flight test. He is acting as PIC but is not rated for IFR. As the safety pilot, am I the PIC or SEC? Oh yea, it's his airplane either owned or rented by him.
If you go on to make aviation your career, having three or four hours logged as Co-pilot in a Chieftan will only cause you embarrassment, regardless of whether or not it is legitimate. Unless you are looking at a significant amount of time, I highly recommend that you don't log it.
There is only ONE commander on any flight. If you are at all confused - the commander is the person who calls the shots/makes the final decision. If the engine stops, and one person wants to land in the field ahead, and one wants to turn back - the commander is the one who got their way 
They may not be sitting at the controls. If the person who is sitting in the back seat bashes you on the back of the head and says "Land in that field!" .. and you do - then that back seater is the commander.
So, if that person under the hood is the person who owns/hired the aircraft & is calling the shots - it doesn't matter if (s)he is under the hood. (S)he is the commander. (In the airlines, the commander may be off the flight deck, asleep in the bunk - but is still the commander and is still logging the time as commander.)
Everyone else who is performing a piloting function (which isn't necessarily wiggling the controls - perhaps working the radio or reading the map) and is licensed for that function - they are gaining experience without being responsible in court for the outcome. Those people gaining experience without being responsible in court for the outcome, must log that experience - and they thus log it as co-pilot time.
... unless they are students.
They may not be sitting at the controls. If the person who is sitting in the back seat bashes you on the back of the head and says "Land in that field!" .. and you do - then that back seater is the commander.
So, if that person under the hood is the person who owns/hired the aircraft & is calling the shots - it doesn't matter if (s)he is under the hood. (S)he is the commander. (In the airlines, the commander may be off the flight deck, asleep in the bunk - but is still the commander and is still logging the time as commander.)
Everyone else who is performing a piloting function (which isn't necessarily wiggling the controls - perhaps working the radio or reading the map) and is licensed for that function - they are gaining experience without being responsible in court for the outcome. Those people gaining experience without being responsible in court for the outcome, must log that experience - and they thus log it as co-pilot time.
... unless they are students.
Last edited by Checkboard; 15th Jul 2012 at 01:14.
I have had the question about logging copilot time when acting as a "safety
pilot" for years. Let's use a SEL Cherokee as an example. The pilot is under
the hood and practicing for his/her IFR flight test. He is acting as PIC but is
not rated for IFR. As the safety pilot, am I the PIC or SEC? Oh yea, it's his
airplane either owned or rented by him.
pilot" for years. Let's use a SEL Cherokee as an example. The pilot is under
the hood and practicing for his/her IFR flight test. He is acting as PIC but is
not rated for IFR. As the safety pilot, am I the PIC or SEC? Oh yea, it's his
airplane either owned or rented by him.
It is different if you are safety for a pilot with a medical condition as you are expected to monitor their performance and take-over if necessary.
If you go on to make aviation your career, having three or four hours logged as Co-pilot in a Chieftan will only cause you embarrassment, regardless of whether or not it is legitimate. Unless you are looking at a significant amount of time, I highly recommend that you don't log it.
If you get to an interveiw and the panel asks you to explain why you have PA31 co-pilot time its easy to just say I was legally required to log it.
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Slight thread drift.......
What about logging of ICUS in the RH Seat on sectors where the FO (dedicated multi-crew) is the PF. I've lost count of the number of interpretations I've had on this.
D
What about logging of ICUS in the RH Seat on sectors where the FO (dedicated multi-crew) is the PF. I've lost count of the number of interpretations I've had on this.
D
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A friend who has a family member flying for QF says that's how it's done there. And the same goes for many airlines outside of Australia. The big advantage I guess is that you're not logging co-pilot time, but ICUS which means not having to halve your flight time for total aeronautical experience. A quick path to getting your hours for the issue of the ATPL I guess.
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Not interested in big shiny jets.
What about logging of ICUS in the RH Seat
ICUS is command training. Was it agreed with the commander that this is what would be taking place on this sector? Were the crew briefed that it was a command training sector - and thus ALL decisions should be directed to the FO and not the commander? Is the FO filling out the tech log and other paperwork? If you encounter, say, weather - is the commander just looking at the FO and waiting for a decision on which method will be used to avoid it?
If the FO is just "pilot flying" - they are not ICUS.
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"Lack of ambition displayed here. Not a good look. Usually means you can't make the grade. if you want a real thrill try flying a big shiny jet between thunderstorm super-cells in the Pacific. "I'm GLAD you 'make the grade' nobhead 
Last edited by norwester33; 15th Jul 2012 at 11:04.
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The QF pilots doing ICUS already all have their ATPL and Command Endorsement.
They are two of the requirements for QF ICUS flying.
They are two of the requirements for QF ICUS flying.
Appointed by the Operator and ACTING as if in Command.
FRQ CB