Logging Co-Pilot Time in SP Operation
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Logging Co-Pilot Time in SP Operation
To what extent can co-pilot time be logged when the aircraft (i.e. PA31-350) is a single pilot operation? Can you sit in the RHS and log co-pilot time?
Presumably not.
(Before you go and shoot me down for asking a question that has already been answered previously, I have done a search of the forums and CARs and could not find anything.)
I expect there is a simple answer for this and that it has been discussed.
Cheers,
PD
Presumably not.
(Before you go and shoot me down for asking a question that has already been answered previously, I have done a search of the forums and CARs and could not find anything.)
I expect there is a simple answer for this and that it has been discussed.
Cheers,
PD
Years ago the company I worked for had a fleet of Chieftains flying RPT. A requirement for single pilot RPT ops is that the aircraft be fitted with a serviceable autopilot. Every now and then the autopilot would become unserviceable, and the aircraft could be dispatched under the MEL. This required a second pilot, rated on type, with a command instrument rating, and holding a CPL or higher. The operation was somewhat "Micky mouse", with no formal training provided, other than a check ride, and left to the Captain's discretion as to how the ops were conducted. This included whether the "co-pilots" were to be given any actual flying, including Take-Offs and landings!
My understanding at the time was that these guys all logged co-pilot time as it was a "bonafide" op sanctioned by the regulator. Otherwise what would be the point? Just under what reg this was applied to, I must admit I haven't a clue, but I'm sure there'd be some single pilot ops out there somewhere that would have a similar proviso for U/S autopilots, or something equally applicable.
My understanding at the time was that these guys all logged co-pilot time as it was a "bonafide" op sanctioned by the regulator. Otherwise what would be the point? Just under what reg this was applied to, I must admit I haven't a clue, but I'm sure there'd be some single pilot ops out there somewhere that would have a similar proviso for U/S autopilots, or something equally applicable.
Bottums Up
Excerpt from CAO 40.1.0
I don't believe sitting in the RHS during single pilot ops allows one to log co-pilot time.
Logging of flight time
10.5 The holder of a commercial pilot (aeroplane) licence may log as time in command the total time elapsed during his or her command, in flight, of an aeroplane. He or she may log as co-pilot the total time during which he or she serves as co-pilot.
10.6 The holder of a multi-crew (aeroplane) pilot licence must log his or her flight time as follows:
(a) any flight time during which the holder acts as co-pilot while the aeroplane is engaged in:
(i) any operation under an AOC that authorises charter operations or regular public transport operations; or
(ii) a private operation;
must be entered in the holder’s log book as time as co-pilot;
10.7 The holder of an air transport pilot (aeroplane) licence must log his or her flight time in accordance with whichever of the following is applicable:
(c) any flight time during which the licence holder acts as co-pilot must be entered in his or her log book as time as co-pilot.
10.5 The holder of a commercial pilot (aeroplane) licence may log as time in command the total time elapsed during his or her command, in flight, of an aeroplane. He or she may log as co-pilot the total time during which he or she serves as co-pilot.
10.6 The holder of a multi-crew (aeroplane) pilot licence must log his or her flight time as follows:
(a) any flight time during which the holder acts as co-pilot while the aeroplane is engaged in:
(i) any operation under an AOC that authorises charter operations or regular public transport operations; or
(ii) a private operation;
must be entered in the holder’s log book as time as co-pilot;
10.7 The holder of an air transport pilot (aeroplane) licence must log his or her flight time in accordance with whichever of the following is applicable:
(c) any flight time during which the licence holder acts as co-pilot must be entered in his or her log book as time as co-pilot.
Using the chieftan example to my understanding, normally you couldn't log time as it's a single pilot operation but the moment the autopilot fails it becomes a 2 pilot plane and you can.
*waits to be proven wrong*
*waits to be proven wrong*
In my book (can't be bothered reading the CASA book) a co-pilot serves a function. Are you assisting in any relevant way? Getting landings? Organising the approach plates? Making the captain coffee?
The title of your post says it all - single pilot ops, so what exactly is your function?
The title of your post says it all - single pilot ops, so what exactly is your function?
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Single pilot ops are just that, one pilot with no copilot. A single pilot aeroplane may be operated two crew under certain conditions. For example if the auto pilot fails, or as per contract requirements. The details will be in the Ops Manual.
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^^
Second that... What's your s.o.p's say? It is an approved document by casa. If it has scope to include duties and functions of a copilot position and you are fulfilling those duties and acting as a copilot. Then it don't matter if it's a single pilot approved plane. It only matters if under your company provisions as approved by casa, if it is a 2 crew operation and you have the right to be there and actually doing something.
I have operated on flights where the "contract" required 2 pilots (not 2 crew). Still single pilot ops as far as our sops went so guess what. I sat there logged nothing and twiddled my thumbs. 2 crew and 2 pilots are different things and unless your manuals approve it, then your just another passenger.
Second that... What's your s.o.p's say? It is an approved document by casa. If it has scope to include duties and functions of a copilot position and you are fulfilling those duties and acting as a copilot. Then it don't matter if it's a single pilot approved plane. It only matters if under your company provisions as approved by casa, if it is a 2 crew operation and you have the right to be there and actually doing something.
I have operated on flights where the "contract" required 2 pilots (not 2 crew). Still single pilot ops as far as our sops went so guess what. I sat there logged nothing and twiddled my thumbs. 2 crew and 2 pilots are different things and unless your manuals approve it, then your just another passenger.
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Logging co-pilot time in a single-pilot aeroplane is more legit in most cases than Qlink's ICUS program. Unless most of the line captains at Qlink are training captains, and the 'FO' is sitting in the left hand seat, I can't understand how they get away with logging so much ICUS. I don't care what the ops manual says, it is a scam and I can't believe CASA tolerates it.
Back to co-pilot time, once came across a lady who had a GFPT and did a fair bit of private flying with friends in everything from drifters to Bonanzas to twins. She later did her PPL and the flying school starting checking her log book to total her hours. They were amazed to find she'd logged a few hundred hours of co-pilot time on all of these private flights, and she was dirty they now wouldn't contribute to her total time. Who cares that she wasn't endorsed on the twins, didn't know how to fly the other aeroplanes, or in many cases hadn't touched the controls. The fact she was allowed by the pilot to fly from the right hand seat (with a GFPT, many many miles from the flying school) was also dodgy.
Back to co-pilot time, once came across a lady who had a GFPT and did a fair bit of private flying with friends in everything from drifters to Bonanzas to twins. She later did her PPL and the flying school starting checking her log book to total her hours. They were amazed to find she'd logged a few hundred hours of co-pilot time on all of these private flights, and she was dirty they now wouldn't contribute to her total time. Who cares that she wasn't endorsed on the twins, didn't know how to fly the other aeroplanes, or in many cases hadn't touched the controls. The fact she was allowed by the pilot to fly from the right hand seat (with a GFPT, many many miles from the flying school) was also dodgy.
Absolute crack-up FTS. When I was studying towards my ppl, good mate of mine was starting on his Commercial. He had learned to fly at this particular Bankstown flying school, drove the refueling truck and went on all sorts of ferry and private flights. I came in one day to see the CFI drawing lines through great swaithes of his log book! Fortunately he had enough total time left to meet his CPL requirements, just! Very funny to see though, as prior to that he would tend to walk around with a bit of a swagger. I'll stress that the dodgy times were logged more by ignorance than any deliberate attempt to deceive.
As far as the Qlink ICUS is concerned, well you can thank ICAO annex 1 for that. Personally I think it's a crock', and so much for world's best practice! It should be noted that under ICAO Annex 1, ICUS can only be logged up to meeting the min command hours (500) for the ATPL. After that, the logging of ICUS under ICAO Annex 1 is not legal
Sorry 'bout the slight thread drift!
As far as the Qlink ICUS is concerned, well you can thank ICAO annex 1 for that. Personally I think it's a crock', and so much for world's best practice! It should be noted that under ICAO Annex 1, ICUS can only be logged up to meeting the min command hours (500) for the ATPL. After that, the logging of ICUS under ICAO Annex 1 is not legal
Sorry 'bout the slight thread drift!
Thread drift warning...
This is an old chestnut...
On a long haul flight when the PIC goes back to the bunk for a sleep and leaves FO and his offsider (FO or SO) to mind the shop who do you think is "in command"? That's right the sleeping Captain. Where you sit has little bearing on who is in command. Take an FO undergoing line training to become a captain. The trainee is in the left but the PIC is in the right. Then on his check to line sectors, assuming the check involves some sectors with a line FO in the right seat the pilot in command is in the jump seat.
Manipulating the controls is different to being PIC.
Unless most of the line captains at Qlink are training captains, and the 'FO' is sitting in the left hand seat, I can't understand how they get away with logging so much ICUS.
On a long haul flight when the PIC goes back to the bunk for a sleep and leaves FO and his offsider (FO or SO) to mind the shop who do you think is "in command"? That's right the sleeping Captain. Where you sit has little bearing on who is in command. Take an FO undergoing line training to become a captain. The trainee is in the left but the PIC is in the right. Then on his check to line sectors, assuming the check involves some sectors with a line FO in the right seat the pilot in command is in the jump seat.
Manipulating the controls is different to being PIC.
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Autopilot U/S then 2 pilots required by CASA = co-pilot time.
Any other "single pilot" aircraft no co-pilot time loggable.
In the case of customer requirement for 2 pilots then only PIC logs time while both log duty time. [same if they answered phone or refueled airdraft etc.]
If command pilot is an instructor then dual may be possible - but on a charter training MAY not be possible!
Any other "single pilot" aircraft no co-pilot time loggable.
In the case of customer requirement for 2 pilots then only PIC logs time while both log duty time. [same if they answered phone or refueled airdraft etc.]
If command pilot is an instructor then dual may be possible - but on a charter training MAY not be possible!
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In the case of customer requirement for 2 pilots then only PIC logs time while both log duty time. [same if they answered phone or refueled airdraft etc
If command pilot is an instructor then dual may be possible - but on a charter training MAY not be possible
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Then on his check to line sectors, assuming the check involves some sectors with a line FO in the right seat the pilot in command is in the jump seat
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Any other "single pilot" aircraft no co-pilot time loggable.
I don't believe that's the case. There are plenty of ops manuals out there with approved multi crew procedures for single pilot aircraft, including checklists and standard calls etc. If its approved by CASA the copilot can indeed log it. Take the Kingair for example, a single pilot aeroplane regularly operated multi crew and you can even get a copilot endorsement!
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OK, I concede that.!
Kingair and the like are both single and 2 pilot, so of course up to company [CASA approved] ops manual.
Questions like that could be referred to the companies FOI!
Kingair and the like are both single and 2 pilot, so of course up to company [CASA approved] ops manual.
Questions like that could be referred to the companies FOI!
Kingair and the like are both single and 2 pilot
The Metro requires two crew RPT but may be operated single pilot in other operations like freight.
Any other "single pilot" aircraft no co-pilot time loggable.
The key is if you have a legit reason to act as co-pilot and are assigned for the duty you can log the hours as such. Examples; minimum aircraft crew requirement, company operational requirement, regulation compliance. These days as said before CASA would want the company to have specific procedures for multi crew operation to justify you had a specific role as co-pilot.
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I operated the PA31 as a co-pilot for about 300hrs last year. This role included either acting as the pilot flying, or when acting as the pilot not flying; all operations of the flight except actually having my hands on the controls.
The POH specifies the aircraft can be operated two crew, our company ops manual requires a co-pilot, CAR's say I can operate as a co-pilot, CAO48 etc requires me to log it as flight-time (though my company prohibits me from doing this).
Story from the Darwin FOI's is that it can't be logged, even though as a crew member, I'm still legally responsible for the conduct of the flight.
Frustrating, as I'd have another 300hrs multi otherwise!
The POH specifies the aircraft can be operated two crew, our company ops manual requires a co-pilot, CAR's say I can operate as a co-pilot, CAO48 etc requires me to log it as flight-time (though my company prohibits me from doing this).
Story from the Darwin FOI's is that it can't be logged, even though as a crew member, I'm still legally responsible for the conduct of the flight.
Frustrating, as I'd have another 300hrs multi otherwise!
The POH specifies the aircraft can be operated two crew, our company ops manual requires a co-pilot, CAR's say I can operate as a co-pilot, CAO48 etc requires me to log it as flight-time (though my company prohibits me from doing this).
There was at least one RPT operation under regular surveilance in southern australia who had two crew operations on PA31. The co-pilot would log co-pilot when PNF and ICUS when PF and competent to do so. This was all audited by CASA and seemed to be not an issue.
The co-pilot does not have to fly the aircraft, they are there to assist the PIC, which may involve control manipulation. Most multi-crew ops now swap sector for sector so the co-pilot can gain hands on experience and build skill, there is no requirement for this to happen.
Frustrating, as I'd have another 300hrs multi otherwise!