Legal implications should an accident happen
Thread Starter
Legal implications should an accident happen
Hello all,
I was hoping to get some information regarding the following points.
a. Is it legal to take a passenger for a flight, if that passenger bid for the flight as part of a fund raising auction? (money went to school, and the flight was donated, ie paid for completely, by the pilot).
b. What would the legal ramifications be, if during the subsequent flight, something was to happen and the aircraft (hired from a school) was damaged, and or, the passenger was injured?
I would greatly appreciated any assistance, including perhaps contact details for someone at CASA with whom I could speak to.
Cheers
Coolnames
I was hoping to get some information regarding the following points.
a. Is it legal to take a passenger for a flight, if that passenger bid for the flight as part of a fund raising auction? (money went to school, and the flight was donated, ie paid for completely, by the pilot).
b. What would the legal ramifications be, if during the subsequent flight, something was to happen and the aircraft (hired from a school) was damaged, and or, the passenger was injured?
I would greatly appreciated any assistance, including perhaps contact details for someone at CASA with whom I could speak to.
Cheers
Coolnames
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Think back to Christmas day a couple of years back when a 172 hit power-lines through his own stupidity and the pilot subsequently died in the post impact crash and burn.
A local charity had recently raffled a flight with the crash pilot. Makes you wonder if the whole charity thing is a good idea.
For what a basic joy flight in a 172 costs with a reputable operator versus the income from the raffle or auction, why would you bother with the hassle?
You would be better off approaching a reputable charter operator or flying school and asking for mates rates, or even better asking if they would donate the flight.
A local charity had recently raffled a flight with the crash pilot. Makes you wonder if the whole charity thing is a good idea.
For what a basic joy flight in a 172 costs with a reputable operator versus the income from the raffle or auction, why would you bother with the hassle?
You would be better off approaching a reputable charter operator or flying school and asking for mates rates, or even better asking if they would donate the flight.
I agree that this is an unnecessarily complex question in Australia.
However, I think the treatment of a hypothetical accident by the insurance company would be completely different than the treatment by CASA. And CASA seem to be treating accidents differently depending on whether it is RAA or VH registered and amateur built vs factory built and the level of news attention.
I start by ringing the aircraft's insurer (probably QBE or Allianz). I guarantee they will be easier to talk with than CASA.
The other factors (in the event of injury) will be the injured person's life, accident or loss of income insurance and potential legal action by that person or his / her estate. This area may be the worst of it.
And of course tripping getting out of the aeroplane and falling on the ground, or tripping on a tie down on the way to the aeroplane opens a whole new can of worms which may involve the flying school or airports public liability insurance.
Heaven help you if you are a bloke, the passenger is a woman and you are perceived to have touched her in the wrong place while helping her in or out of the aeroplane.
Just don't screw up. And if you do have everything in your wife's name.
There is another thread about fundraising. The ATO have made this area very difficult for charities. In simple terms, any money given to a Charity in exchange for goods & services is not tax deductible. Someone paying a charity $10,000 for a 10 min flight with you is not necessarily entitled to a tax deduction.
The good news is that over the years I have donated many flights at charity auctions and not one of them has ever been claimed. So, there's a fair chance that this question will remain hypothetical for you. Typically they are bought by someone for a mate as a joke and after everyone sobers up they lose interest.
However, I think the treatment of a hypothetical accident by the insurance company would be completely different than the treatment by CASA. And CASA seem to be treating accidents differently depending on whether it is RAA or VH registered and amateur built vs factory built and the level of news attention.
I start by ringing the aircraft's insurer (probably QBE or Allianz). I guarantee they will be easier to talk with than CASA.
The other factors (in the event of injury) will be the injured person's life, accident or loss of income insurance and potential legal action by that person or his / her estate. This area may be the worst of it.
And of course tripping getting out of the aeroplane and falling on the ground, or tripping on a tie down on the way to the aeroplane opens a whole new can of worms which may involve the flying school or airports public liability insurance.
Heaven help you if you are a bloke, the passenger is a woman and you are perceived to have touched her in the wrong place while helping her in or out of the aeroplane.
Just don't screw up. And if you do have everything in your wife's name.
There is another thread about fundraising. The ATO have made this area very difficult for charities. In simple terms, any money given to a Charity in exchange for goods & services is not tax deductible. Someone paying a charity $10,000 for a 10 min flight with you is not necessarily entitled to a tax deduction.
The good news is that over the years I have donated many flights at charity auctions and not one of them has ever been claimed. So, there's a fair chance that this question will remain hypothetical for you. Typically they are bought by someone for a mate as a joke and after everyone sobers up they lose interest.
If you look into legality, liability and aviation then you may as well give up flying and sit at home.
Due to the press and the legal system Australians are increasingly becoming paranoid ninnies, is this you?
BTW I also agree with XXX, why the heck are you auctioning a flight with you as pilot anyway? Ego perhaps?
And there I was thinking pilots were humble ego free folk ...
Due to the press and the legal system Australians are increasingly becoming paranoid ninnies, is this you?
BTW I also agree with XXX, why the heck are you auctioning a flight with you as pilot anyway? Ego perhaps?
And there I was thinking pilots were humble ego free folk ...
Moderator
a. Is it legal to take a passenger for a flight, if that passenger bid for the flight as part of a fund raising auction? (money went to school, and the flight was donated, ie paid for completely, by the pilot).
b. What would the legal ramifications be, if during the subsequent flight, something was to happen and the aircraft (hired from a school) was damaged, and or, the passenger was injured?
b. What would the legal ramifications be, if during the subsequent flight, something was to happen and the aircraft (hired from a school) was damaged, and or, the passenger was injured?
I think you answered your own question: "that passenger bid for the flight" so there was a financial consideration in exchange for the flight?
Refer my comment in this thread. Potentially a heap of heart ache for very little gain!
Why not ask a flying school to donate or discount a TIF to the charity and auction or sell tickets?
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Think back to Christmas day a couple of years back when a 172 hit power-lines through his own stupidity and the pilot subsequently died in the post impact crash and burn.
A local charity had recently raffled a flight with the crash pilot. Makes you wonder if the whole charity thing is a good idea.
For what a basic joy flight in a 172 costs with a reputable operator versus the income from the raffle or auction, why would you bother with the hassle?
You would be better off approaching a reputable charter operator or flying school and asking for mates rates, or even better asking if they would donate the flight.
A local charity had recently raffled a flight with the crash pilot. Makes you wonder if the whole charity thing is a good idea.
For what a basic joy flight in a 172 costs with a reputable operator versus the income from the raffle or auction, why would you bother with the hassle?
You would be better off approaching a reputable charter operator or flying school and asking for mates rates, or even better asking if they would donate the flight.
1. 'Christmas present' pilots die in power lines because they are stupid.
2. No pilot who has ever filed a Safety occurrence report should ever be allowed to help people.
3. Charities holding raffles are bad unless you [designated leftist] approve.
4. Given that you could have dinner in a 5-star hotel, why would you bother with the hassle of someone so arrogant?
5. Would you be better off doing what you essentially originally asked for [but I selfishly diverted you off on]
milFlier your point is???
If a person buys (like parts with money for) a flight in an aeroplane with a total stranger then the least they could expect is a commercial pilot operating under an air operators certificate.
Clearly Coolnames does not meet these requirements otherwise he would not be posting this question.
If a person buys (like parts with money for) a flight in an aeroplane with a total stranger then the least they could expect is a commercial pilot operating under an air operators certificate.
Clearly Coolnames does not meet these requirements otherwise he would not be posting this question.
Thread Starter
Thanks to all for the info/comments/suggestions.
To Aussie Bob
Actually, no I'm not a paranoid ninnie, just someone who looks into things from an adult point of view. I would hate for something to go wrong and for the family of the pax, to be out of pocket, or indeed for my family to suffer financially, because I didn't bother to check what I was offering was legal.
As for the reason I am doing the flight; simple. It is (if I decide to do it) as a fund raiser for my child's school, a school that I'm heavily involved with, where most of the parents know me and where I thought it would be nice to offer a flight with a parent of the school; it adds to the sense of community.
Ego has nothing to do with it.
The other reason is the cost. I can hire a Decathlon for $300/hr so a half hour flight with me will cost ME $150. I do not know anyone who can 'donate' a flight, so since I am a pilot, I thought I could do it.
Tail wheel,
Thanks for the link
. To answer your questions, I am an ATPL pilot, I would hire the aircraft from a flying school as a private operator (I assume - hence asking questions here)
It seems it might be more hassle than it is worth, however, I will keep looking into it and do appreciate the responses.
Cheers
Coolnames
To Aussie Bob
Due to the press and the legal system Australians are increasingly becoming paranoid ninnies, is this you?
BTW I also agree with XXX, why the heck are you auctioning a flight with you as pilot anyway? Ego perhaps?
BTW I also agree with XXX, why the heck are you auctioning a flight with you as pilot anyway? Ego perhaps?
As for the reason I am doing the flight; simple. It is (if I decide to do it) as a fund raiser for my child's school, a school that I'm heavily involved with, where most of the parents know me and where I thought it would be nice to offer a flight with a parent of the school; it adds to the sense of community.
Ego has nothing to do with it.
The other reason is the cost. I can hire a Decathlon for $300/hr so a half hour flight with me will cost ME $150. I do not know anyone who can 'donate' a flight, so since I am a pilot, I thought I could do it.
Tail wheel,
Thanks for the link
. To answer your questions, I am an ATPL pilot, I would hire the aircraft from a flying school as a private operator (I assume - hence asking questions here)It seems it might be more hassle than it is worth, however, I will keep looking into it and do appreciate the responses.
Cheers
Coolnames
Apologies Coolnames if I caused any offence, but my question now is if you are an ATPL then why don't you simply conduct the flight as a charter under the flying schools AOC?
Thread Starter
Aussie Bob - just ask me about my qualifications before making derogatory comments
From the link provided by Tail wheel
Bob, just because I ask a question, how does that make me a 'wannabe commercial pilot'? An apology would be graciously accepted
There is another wannabe commercial pilot posting here curently about the same thing.
See: Legal implications should an accident happen
All I say if a member of the public pays anything for a flight with a stranger be it a donation or whatever then the least they deserve is a commercial pilot operating under an air operators certificate.
See: Legal implications should an accident happen
All I say if a member of the public pays anything for a flight with a stranger be it a donation or whatever then the least they deserve is a commercial pilot operating under an air operators certificate.
Thread Starter
Apology accepted
Bob,
Thanks for the suggestion to operate as a charter. I will talk to the school where I hire aircraft from and investigate.
I only ever hire aircraft for private flying, and as such have never operated as a 'charter' (AFAIK).
Just to let you know why I am asking, I spent over 20 years in the Military and now fly for an airline. As a result of not having gone through the GA route, I have not operated charter flights before.
I now have a little bit more info, so possibly have some options.
Thanks for the suggestion
Cheers
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Aussie Bob,
He cant do it under the flying school AOC, regardless of qualifications, because he has to be properly inducted onto the AOC and that involves a whole shedload of work including an Alochol & Drug test, Check flight, etc etc.
I doubt very much that it would be worth the effort.
Groggy
He cant do it under the flying school AOC, regardless of qualifications, because he has to be properly inducted onto the AOC and that involves a whole shedload of work including an Alochol & Drug test, Check flight, etc etc.
I doubt very much that it would be worth the effort.
Groggy
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took the words out of my mouth Groggy, CASA make it almost impossible to employ someone casually.
Lets see..
Half a warehouse of paperwork
Induction course
CAO 20.11 course including wet drills
DAMP test
Proficiency check.
Not worth the effort
Lets see..
Half a warehouse of paperwork
Induction course
CAO 20.11 course including wet drills
DAMP test
Proficiency check.
Not worth the effort
Last time I looked cost sharing in Australia was perfectly legal for private flights. So are free flights if the pilot so wishes and always have been.
All you need do is make sure the passenger/s is aware it is a private flight and also should advise them of the insurance cover. It is then up to them if they choose to proceed or not. No different to jumping on the back of a motorbike,speed boat,or bungy jump for that matter.
It does not need to get any more complicated than that unless it is a commercial operation for hire and reward.
All you need do is make sure the passenger/s is aware it is a private flight and also should advise them of the insurance cover. It is then up to them if they choose to proceed or not. No different to jumping on the back of a motorbike,speed boat,or bungy jump for that matter.
It does not need to get any more complicated than that unless it is a commercial operation for hire and reward.
Dear oh dear, clearly it is time to eat my slice of humble pie and opt out. I should have known of CASA requirements and have opened my mouth a bit too wide without thinking.
Thanks for accepting the apologies Coolnames and good luck with the charity raising project.
Thanks for accepting the apologies Coolnames and good luck with the charity raising project.
Moderator
It does not need to get any more complicated than that unless it is a commercial operation for hire and reward.
My post was to urge caution - I do not know and am not preempting what view CASA or the Courts may take.
A little more research revealed CASA Ruling 3/2003 "Application of CAR 206 to operations conducted for the benefit of a charitable entity".
allthecoolnamesarego may be well advised to contact CASA, provide details of the proposed charitable flight and seek confirmation that the flight is within the provisions of CASA Ruling 3/2003? It may be that simple?
Perusal of the aircraft owner's passenger liability insurance or obtaining an indemnity from the passenger may be prudent.
One assumes that those who post in this Forum are professional pilots, familiar with relevant aviation legislation - although I have my doubts, looking at some of the posts in this thread!
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The proposed operation certainly appears to be in the nature of "for hire and reward" as the charity is the beneficiary of a financial consideration in exchange for a flight.
There is a clause in the US FAA regs. for PPLs & private Ops to conduct flights for charity, under a number of conditions, but this is not legal under NZ CAA and I assume CASA rules.
My personal advice: don't do the flight unless you have written authorisation from CASA. It would probably be better for all involved if you sponsored a flying lesson for the lottery winner with the nearest flying club.