2 dead in Vic NW of Melb at Wallup

[mostlytossas]

Fair dinkum Framer. I haven't read so much nonscense in a long time. Experiance cannot be bought or can it be gained by a mere qualification or licence grade. Put it in perpective with surface transport. According to you a taxi driver would be a better driver than a private driver because it is his job and is "immersed in it" yeah right,what planet do you live on. Taxi cabs are better maintained too no doubt because they are regulated by the PTB, sure!!!
As for reading aviation books,well I have a family member that fly's for a high capacity airline and let me tell you the last thing he wants to do in his own time is read or do anything aviation related.

[Howard Hughes]

Does the "low bar" that you complain about apply to the ABC chopper? Or the 206 at Lake Eyre. Or the 210 at Kunnunurra? At the moment there is no evidence that the Cherokee 180 that crashed near Nhill was any less well maintained, or the pilot any less diligent. Indeed, while its unlikely, the aeroplane might even be in the charter category for all we know. Instead, there is just a lot of finger pointing because the pilot was a private pilot and not possessing the elevated status of CPL or ATPL.

Old Akro, could you please point out where I have made a direct reference to either the pilot, or aircraft concerned in this incident? My only reference was to say that following this incident, now may be a very good time to review the way Angel Flight operates.

And why should a small not-for-profit be setting itself up as knowing better than CASA? Why do you think my family's life is worth less than someone I meet through Angel Flight? If you think the PPL standards are too low, then lets argue that case. If you think Airwork maintenance standards are too low, then lets argue that case. And if there is a good argument for either, then let's take it to CASA.

Once again you seem to have missed my point, or perhaps I have not delivered it succinctly enough. I have not said that the standards are too low, nor had a go at private pilots, more that all pilots (and in particular organisations) should be striving for a higher standard than the 'bare minimum'. There is no need to change the minimums, nor dictate to CASA, simply say here is the minimum, I want to aim for a higher level/standard and set appropiate goals. I would hope that is what most are doing anyway!

I presume you have never sen the information pack that goers to Angel Flight passengers? Or have awareness of the screening system to confirm that the passengers are fit to fly? Or potentially even the emails and flight briefing sheets that go to passengers, pilots & ground crew? Have you experienced how Angel Flight deals with a Pilot cancelling a trip (which is excellent by the way)?

You got me, I haven't! Nor do I think I need to in order to be able to understand the way non fliers view and understand aviation, I have dealt with enough non-fliers to be able realise that it is almost impossible for them to understand the subtle differences involved, no matter how much information they are given.

For what it's worth my opinion with regard to experience; I think recent and relevant experience is as important as total time.

Cheers, HH.

[jas24zzk]

VH-XXX makes an interesting point of thought. Certainly one many of us had not considered, and upon reflection, most of the AF pilots I know fall into this very category.

Retired Airline Pilots. Thousands of hours experience. Full licence=ATPL. Medical...class 2. rendering them to PPL level.

Are these the same PPL guys we are talking about? Are we putting them all in the same bag?

The reality is that maybe 1% of AF pilots do it for the hour building, the remainder do it for the love of flying.
I'm not even going to hazard the percentages here, but you can bet your arse that all these guys do it as a means of maintaining their skills.

If you don't fly, your skills fall, we all know that. whether it be an 800 pure ppl, or a 20k hour jet jock.

--------------------------------
framer,
seriously dude, your anti NVFR thoughts do not belong in this thread. The relevancy for this accident have already been established. If you wish to bash us with NVFR tickets, start a new thread for the subject.


Cheers
Jas

[Kharon]

It's not the -

It's not Lads, Lasses, ATPL/ CPL/ PPL NVMC, IFR, SE, ME or, any of the above boxes that concern me; only the harsh realities of life.

If I ruled the world (music up please, musical interlude follows) every pilot could do as best pleased them - but I don't.

CF - "Uhmm , Sorry Missus - we killed your kid".

Mum - (No worries - insurance will pay the expenses and compo).

QBE - Sorry Madam - no compo, illegal flight - we suggest you sue the operators insurance company.

WHAT - no compo, CASA should not let this happen.

The rest, as they say - is history.

Run over a Budgie - mandatory ATSB report.

Oh boy the Coroners court mess. Can't wait. $$$$$$$$$$.

Alah kerrin - ho ho.

Selah .

[jas24zzk]

Selah,
nice to see your post is as constructive as usual. about time you got off the yippee flowers mate.

[Kharon]

As the man said

Yawwwn !!!.

October the 7th is now one day closer.

See you then - all you Big shots, experts, bully's and the rest of the people who do not have a cushion. (Think of Bilbo or, [ if that defeats thee] Heath Ledger).

Remember, remember the 7th of October - not quite as neat as the fifth of November - but I am sure all the intellectual giants attending will forgive a poor, uneducated country boy (LMFSO) a small flight of fancy.

Come on, ozzie come on. You know the song.

‘ala khair.

dis bala khayer, nitkalem sawa bad

Selah. Indeed.

[framer]

I didn't mean to wind you guys up, thats not my M.O.
I will stop banging on about the NVFR rating because it is derailing the thread which was not my intention.Apologies there.

Have you read the Angel Flight pilot profiles?

I have. Very impressed (no sarcasim).
I honestly admire the AF organisation and haven't said one word against it or their pilots. My beef is with the rating and this wan't the place to pursue it.

I do disagree with some of the statements here regarding decision making though.

Would a 20 year old 200 hour CPL have better judgement than a 700 hour 50 year old?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. (like I said) It depends on many things, did the 50 year old log those 700hrs over a 20 year period? If so I hold currency well above 35 hours a year, so it depends on the situation.
Anyway, I was talking big picture and thousands of licence holders and I probably didn't make that clear, we ended up comparing two imaginary pilots, it's futile. If in doubt just look at the stats for crashes. The stats don't play out the way they do because ppls fly faster more complex aircraft in worse weather, they play out the way they do because on average they have less experience to draw options from when making decisions.
Or is there another reason that I have missed?
Remember...this isn't an attack on ppl's, my motive here is to remove the option to fly in the dark with inadequate training.

framer,
seriously dude, your anti NVFR thoughts do not belong in this thread.

Fair call.
I'l start another thread soon to avoid hijacking this one, feel free to pm me if you want to continue the converstaion.
Have a good one,
Framer

[Old Akro]

Karom

What are you on? Your post is unintelligible babble trying to make scaremongering accusations without basis.

And be careful about weilding PLO anniversary dates like threats.

[Aussie Bob]

I am with Karom.

And it is time you opinionated ninnies stopped postulating about what was simply an unfortunate accident. Let it go, move on.

[cficare]

the major prob is 'tasking' a pilot to perform a mission.....puts heaps of pressure on the pilot..

[YPJT]

the major prob is 'tasking' a pilot to perform a mission.....puts heaps of pressure on the pilot..

Absolute garbage. I have undertaken many AFs (never really got a hard on referring to them as missions). On occasions after careful consideration of wx forecasts have gone back to AF ops and said it's a no go. No pressure whatsoever.

[cficare]

that proves it works sometimes ...your still alive.

[jas24zzk]

I didn't mean to wind you guys up, thats not my M.O.
I will stop banging on about the NVFR rating because it is derailing the thread which was not my intention.Apologies there.

Framer,
if you feel so passionate about it, you should start a new thread on subject....i beleive i suggested that prior.

Jas

[Diatryma]

Angel Flight mum loses fight for life Julie-Anne and Jacinda Twigg

Tragic,

Di

[YPJT]

Di,
yes mate. Very tragic indeed.

Would be nice if all of us in this industry reflected on the sadness of the whole thing instead of taking turns on the high ground trying to pull AF to shreds. At least let ATSB do its job before the expert commentary.

[OverFienD]

Firstly, condolences to the family of the mother, who have already had so much sadness.

Al

It seems clear to me that we are destined to disagree, but insulting me does not make your argument any more correct.

If, as you say, the error is mine, could you please just clarify what

It is not Red Tape to develop a position wherein an otherwise innocent / uneducated passenger can reasonably expect to survive a flight.

Means? Specifically which passengers CANNOT reasonably expect to survive a flight, that a position needs tobe developed for?

Otherwise, I think most of the arguments either way have been made in various forms by others.

[SW3]

Firstly, what a tragedy this accident is. An accident affects families and everyone of us as pilots.

The idea of AF is a fantastic one, no one can criticise the merits of it. However there are some issues at hand which must be addressed, undoubtedly the ATSB will make sure of this.

There is a reason behind the hierarchy of licences (PPL, CPL & ATPL) and a reason why there are Instrument Ratings and NVFR Ratings. The NVFR on a PPL is a handy rating for your own personal use under a private operation for your own personal transport. However transporting others around, especially in a single well that's a whole different story. A PPL holder conducting a NVFR flight in a twin with a Command Instrument Rating would be fair in my book.

I think we should be looking at the type of flying AF pilots are allowed to conduct, not whether it should be allowed or who is better out of a PPL or a CPL! Sure if the pilot has the qualifications and equipment, go for it (IE Night = Multi Engine, Bad Weather = IR). Maybe limit the type of sorties allowed to be flown based on experience, qualifications and aircraft. PPL and hold only a NVFR with a single then limit to Day VFR. Ex airline pilot still holding a CIR with a PPL and a twin, night IFR fill your boots.

Higher Licences and ratings means more training and a safer operation. That is why to fly commercially you need this training, because CASA requires it for safety. Then the experience is built onto that training. No aviation operator hands the keys to the biggest aircraft in the fleet on a socked in day to the least qualified pilot on the books. Horses for courses, keep in the depth you're used to and this system should work fantastically. Let's learn from this tragedy as that is what our rules and regs are built on, someone else's misfortune.

[FGD135]

SW3,

You are missing the whole point of AF. To give you a clue, in one word:

Cost.

Edited to add: To clarify, "cost" is not what AF are about, but "cost" is a significant aspect of the reason for the existance of AF.

[Al Fentanyl]

FGD135 maybe you have missed the point: "If you think training / maintenance / equipment / pilot qualification is expensive, try having a crash"

[SW3]

FGD135 I think you have missed the points I raise completely!
Safety is my point and 100% agree with Al, it is cheaper than an accident.
AF is a fantastic organisation as I've said and its merits are well and truly in everyone's best interests. I wholeheartedly support their mission. However to keep a safe operation there needs to be the required qualifications and training to complete the task at hand. Blue sky day, VFR go for it. Dark stormy night, NVFR won't cut it. That's why the COST of an ATPL isn't the same as the COST of a Wheety's packet. Why the cost of a single can't be substituted for the cost of a twin's job.