Std Phraseology in NZ
I don't think giving the POB or reading the QNH back is a waste of time at all. Remember some Ag planes have an additional seat for crew which is not visible from outside. Other times getting a quick headcount in an accident would be nice. Plans do change, and the figure you filed 30 mins ago may no longer be accurate. As others have said, regardless what you think it's good to stick to the procedure, and if you really don't like it there are lines of communication to the powers that be to change things...
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Ummmm certainly on the flights I operate, I was under the impression that the filed flight-plan contained the POB (you know, the ICAO format at the back of the plog)..now I know its subject to LMC's etc, but thats the point of signing and handing a copy of the loadsheet to the handling agent..who BTW at NZAA have an electronic record of the POB as they close the flight.
the information is readily available without wasting air time
plus the cabin crew will take the manifest with them
There seems to be an unrealistic amount of faith in the system to perform flawlessly when required & just how well people will react in the face of a crisis, considering the evidence throughout history that tends to indicate the opposite.
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It used to be a requirement for TWR controllers to obtain POB, except for RPT flights where the operator had a desk at that airport from which the information could be quickly obtained (a sop to protect sensibilities about passenger loads being commercial-in-confidence).
This is no longer specified in MATS but a lot of TCU/TWR local instructions still require it. Australian flight plans do not have to include POB and in any event the equipment they use in the tower to actually view your plan (assuming they have that capability - many Class Ds do not) won't display the POB field even if you included it.
This is no longer specified in MATS but a lot of TCU/TWR local instructions still require it. Australian flight plans do not have to include POB and in any event the equipment they use in the tower to actually view your plan (assuming they have that capability - many Class Ds do not) won't display the POB field even if you included it.
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Oakape
Whatever. The system doesn't work anyway, Air NZ/Link refuses to pass POB info at some fields anyway as they view it as commercially sensitive - anyone with an airband radio can plot your pax numbers. Woodbourne springs to mind in this regard.
Having spent most of my aviation career in a far more enlightened ATC environment, I can confirm that the nations that don't require POB info to be passed seem to have no particular difficulty ascertaining pax numbers in an emergency. But then, they have better flight planning and information gathering procedures. One simple call to our Ops Department would give you the POB figure in an emergency, within seconds. That's because we have computers and stuff.
Our cabin crew always took the manifest with them when vacating the aircraft, it was SOP and tested during annual refresher training.
If you have a situation where the crew can't pass the POB and the cabin crew don't have the manifest (or at least remember the pax figure that they passed to the flight deck), you are basically looking at a body count.
The history of major airline accidents will show you that Rescue Fire keep looking until they can't find any more survivors, they don't rely on a POB figure. Well, outside NZ at any rate.
Whatever. The system doesn't work anyway, Air NZ/Link refuses to pass POB info at some fields anyway as they view it as commercially sensitive - anyone with an airband radio can plot your pax numbers. Woodbourne springs to mind in this regard.
Having spent most of my aviation career in a far more enlightened ATC environment, I can confirm that the nations that don't require POB info to be passed seem to have no particular difficulty ascertaining pax numbers in an emergency. But then, they have better flight planning and information gathering procedures. One simple call to our Ops Department would give you the POB figure in an emergency, within seconds. That's because we have computers and stuff.
Our cabin crew always took the manifest with them when vacating the aircraft, it was SOP and tested during annual refresher training.
If you have a situation where the crew can't pass the POB and the cabin crew don't have the manifest (or at least remember the pax figure that they passed to the flight deck), you are basically looking at a body count.
The history of major airline accidents will show you that Rescue Fire keep looking until they can't find any more survivors, they don't rely on a POB figure. Well, outside NZ at any rate.
XYZ Traffic, abc turns finals rwy xx
Go bonkers listening to kiwis and the muppet aussies who imitate them not being able to speak in first person present tense.
Go bonkers listening to kiwis and the muppet aussies who imitate them not being able to speak in first person present tense.
Whatever. The system doesn't work anyway, Air NZ/Link refuses to pass POB info at some fields anyway as they view it as commercially sensitive
A bit of history behind the POB requirement:
Many years ago a Friendship on a visual approach crashed in the Manakau Harbour, on short final to 05 at AA. (Lost visual reference in a heavy shower.)
The tower staff, as they do, alerted the appropriate folk. RFS beetled off to the threshold, launched the zodiac rafts. In the meantime, the tower had contacted the airline to find out the POB. The airline contacted their folk at the departure point, the answer came back "2". This figure was relayed to the RFS crew.
There were problems with the radio gear on the zodiac that was working. (I think the other one failed to start.) The RFS folk at the West end of the airport, watching the rescue, found out there were 2 POB, and two survivors could be seen on the wing, in the process of being rescued.
Thing was, though, the airline thought that POB meant "passengers on board". The total POB was 4; two people drowned in the semi-submerged aircraft. The RFS crew at the scene, without communications, were pretty much powerless to do much about it.
In the event, if more or better rescue facilities had been on the scene, it's unlikely they would have been saved; they were tangled in some kind of plastic tape (cargo) that spread all over the place during impact, and probably succumbed before the first rescuers arrived.
But the accident investigators quite rightly pointed out that it was a source of potential confusion, and made a recommendation that it be passed by the PIC to the tower on first contact for every flight. Apart from a period in the nineties (IIRC) when the requirement was not promulgated, it has been ever since.
[edit] as has been pointed out, it is actually not currently a requirement, simply a recommendation.
Honestly, it takes a few seconds to pass it. 99.9r% of the time it's not required. When it is required, there might be circumstances when it's important to know the correct figure, ASAP.
Most flight plans in the ATS database do not have the POB inserted before flight. They are a standard repetitive plan. Those for VFR flights (SAR watches) are not transmitted to the towers. We in tower-land know nothing about you until you call up, unless you have put in an IFIS notification. SAR plans are available to examine if required, at any ATS unit.
Many years ago a Friendship on a visual approach crashed in the Manakau Harbour, on short final to 05 at AA. (Lost visual reference in a heavy shower.)
The tower staff, as they do, alerted the appropriate folk. RFS beetled off to the threshold, launched the zodiac rafts. In the meantime, the tower had contacted the airline to find out the POB. The airline contacted their folk at the departure point, the answer came back "2". This figure was relayed to the RFS crew.
There were problems with the radio gear on the zodiac that was working. (I think the other one failed to start.) The RFS folk at the West end of the airport, watching the rescue, found out there were 2 POB, and two survivors could be seen on the wing, in the process of being rescued.
Thing was, though, the airline thought that POB meant "passengers on board". The total POB was 4; two people drowned in the semi-submerged aircraft. The RFS crew at the scene, without communications, were pretty much powerless to do much about it.
In the event, if more or better rescue facilities had been on the scene, it's unlikely they would have been saved; they were tangled in some kind of plastic tape (cargo) that spread all over the place during impact, and probably succumbed before the first rescuers arrived.
But the accident investigators quite rightly pointed out that it was a source of potential confusion, and made a recommendation that it be passed by the PIC to the tower on first contact for every flight. Apart from a period in the nineties (IIRC) when the requirement was not promulgated, it has been ever since.
[edit] as has been pointed out, it is actually not currently a requirement, simply a recommendation.
Honestly, it takes a few seconds to pass it. 99.9r% of the time it's not required. When it is required, there might be circumstances when it's important to know the correct figure, ASAP.
Most flight plans in the ATS database do not have the POB inserted before flight. They are a standard repetitive plan. Those for VFR flights (SAR watches) are not transmitted to the towers. We in tower-land know nothing about you until you call up, unless you have put in an IFIS notification. SAR plans are available to examine if required, at any ATS unit.
Last edited by Tarq57; 14th Jul 2011 at 04:06. Reason: Factual correction.
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hmmm... I really don't understand why all the fuss and angst over a very simple POB requirement remoak and haughtney1. It may be something you're not used to where you are/were flying, but that does not make it wrong. Most of the flying I do is on a standard flight plan, requiring only a radio call when taxiing or airborne to activate. I certainly do want the POB known and recorded in the event of an unplanned happening... just common sense IMO. It's a very simple thing, takes little if any additional time in a properly structured call and achieves its purpose. Where's the problem?
It's real easy to climb on a high-horse, decrying "unprofessional" radio calls, that are not structured precisely as per AIP guidelines -but please, let's not forget we're humans here, not machines. It's unrealistic to expect every call to be exactly as per AIP specification -and quite frankly, it'd be god-awful mindless boring to boot. Whilst I agree that some calls are utterly unprofessional, containing neither necessary nor desirable elements in an effort to sound like a Hollywood interpretation of a professional pilot, most calls are quite professional, rapidly and effectively transmitting all required elements, with a little local colloquialism added. Despite the insinuation from some posters that the "big end of town" doesn't do it -they do, frequently. As you are no doubt aware, there is often a more personal relationship between the two ends of a professional radio call also, which may become apparent in the informality of the call. The 2 participants have had exactly this conversation countless times in the past and probably will do so again in the future. Again, where's the problem?
I've personally made and received calls when I have "strayed" from my usual stamping-ground and found the person on the other end of the call to be someone I used to know "way back when". Either they or I say gidday, we have a brief public catch-up lasting no more than a few seconds and can follow up more directly by another means at a later time. It's not unknown for others on-frequency to weigh-in too, sometimes leading to another bloody good night!!!
NZ is no different to any other place in this regard IMO. There'll always be cultural, procedural and "colloquial" differences wherever you go. To suggest that one place is "better" than another is IMO misleading. I'm in AUS just now; some of the calls here make my skin crawl. When I was in the US, I was astounded at the frequency of informal calls of the "N triple-nickel eight-ball" variety.
Some of us could possibly afford to be a little less linear in our thinking, It's neither necessary nor desirable to have every action or utterance "promulgated" and written-in-stone for us, I reckon.
It's real easy to climb on a high-horse, decrying "unprofessional" radio calls, that are not structured precisely as per AIP guidelines -but please, let's not forget we're humans here, not machines. It's unrealistic to expect every call to be exactly as per AIP specification -and quite frankly, it'd be god-awful mindless boring to boot. Whilst I agree that some calls are utterly unprofessional, containing neither necessary nor desirable elements in an effort to sound like a Hollywood interpretation of a professional pilot, most calls are quite professional, rapidly and effectively transmitting all required elements, with a little local colloquialism added. Despite the insinuation from some posters that the "big end of town" doesn't do it -they do, frequently. As you are no doubt aware, there is often a more personal relationship between the two ends of a professional radio call also, which may become apparent in the informality of the call. The 2 participants have had exactly this conversation countless times in the past and probably will do so again in the future. Again, where's the problem?
I've personally made and received calls when I have "strayed" from my usual stamping-ground and found the person on the other end of the call to be someone I used to know "way back when". Either they or I say gidday, we have a brief public catch-up lasting no more than a few seconds and can follow up more directly by another means at a later time. It's not unknown for others on-frequency to weigh-in too, sometimes leading to another bloody good night!!!
NZ is no different to any other place in this regard IMO. There'll always be cultural, procedural and "colloquial" differences wherever you go. To suggest that one place is "better" than another is IMO misleading. I'm in AUS just now; some of the calls here make my skin crawl. When I was in the US, I was astounded at the frequency of informal calls of the "N triple-nickel eight-ball" variety.
Some of us could possibly afford to be a little less linear in our thinking, It's neither necessary nor desirable to have every action or utterance "promulgated" and written-in-stone for us, I reckon.
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27/09
You are clearly unaware of policy decisions surrounding this as a result of some shenanigans by the various operators on the WN-WB route. It is well-known in ATC circles.
RadioSaigon
We are simply pointing out that in better organised systems, the call is neither necessary or required. Try including POB at, say, Heathrow or Paris CDG and you would rapidly run out of available radio space. But then, as it never really gets busy in NZ, I can see why people wouldn't understand that.
Nobody is talking about strict AIP compliance, we are talking about sensible and practical applications of ICAO rules.
Nobody is talking about "better" either, it's about more sensible systems. Europe has them. NZ doesn't. What NZ does, is make knee-jerk reactions in order to plaster over the cracks when an accident reveals shortfalls. That's all the POB thing is, a band-aid that doesn't address the deeper problem (in other words, a standard NZ CAA response).
The POB issue is simple. All airline flights will have a final POB figure that is advised by the dispatcher to company ops. Very simple and very available in the event of an emergency. All non-airline and private movements have a POB field in the IFIS system, just make that a mandatory field and bingo! - problem solved.
Why create more radio traffic than necessary? The whole point of effective communication is to have less congested frequencies.
I hear these guys every day passing POB info to the tower, including NZWB.
RadioSaigon
We are simply pointing out that in better organised systems, the call is neither necessary or required. Try including POB at, say, Heathrow or Paris CDG and you would rapidly run out of available radio space. But then, as it never really gets busy in NZ, I can see why people wouldn't understand that.
Nobody is talking about strict AIP compliance, we are talking about sensible and practical applications of ICAO rules.
Nobody is talking about "better" either, it's about more sensible systems. Europe has them. NZ doesn't. What NZ does, is make knee-jerk reactions in order to plaster over the cracks when an accident reveals shortfalls. That's all the POB thing is, a band-aid that doesn't address the deeper problem (in other words, a standard NZ CAA response).
The POB issue is simple. All airline flights will have a final POB figure that is advised by the dispatcher to company ops. Very simple and very available in the event of an emergency. All non-airline and private movements have a POB field in the IFIS system, just make that a mandatory field and bingo! - problem solved.
Why create more radio traffic than necessary? The whole point of effective communication is to have less congested frequencies.
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I do see where you're coming from remoak, but I think we're looking at the issue from 2 sides of the coin. Your comments are utterly relevant to airline ops, with all the backups available to you within the airline environment that could replace the POB call. I'm looking at it from the POV of a 3rd-level operator, on standard flight-plans activated by radio, within which the POB call is an essential element. I don't have the backups available to you. I don't want to have to write a full flight-plan which will record the POB for every flight -there's already enough on my plate now to meet regulatory compliance. As I said earlier, it's a very minor thing, occupying only a brief period of time on the radio and IMO a non-issue...
"NZCH, XXX airborne NZAS (time) 22 for NZMC with (POB) wun-zero"... really doesn't strike me as much of an issue. (BTW: I just pulled that call out of my arse -it bears no resemblance to any actual aircraft or destination -words in brackets are not spoken)
"NZCH, XXX airborne NZAS (time) 22 for NZMC with (POB) wun-zero"... really doesn't strike me as much of an issue. (BTW: I just pulled that call out of my arse -it bears no resemblance to any actual aircraft or destination -words in brackets are not spoken)
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What Remoak said 
I'd just also like to add that I know for a fact that the our POB figures are available to ATC as they are forwarded electronically within 20 seconds of the door closing.....
With respect to bugsmashers and pisscats, I dont have an opinion either way.
NZ certainly has some local variations, as do most places, this one to me and the operation I'm part of, seems a bit redundant.
In any case, thats just my opinion.
P.S. Radio..you beat me to the post mate...my perspective is RPT worldwide Ops
I'd just also like to add that I know for a fact that the our POB figures are available to ATC as they are forwarded electronically within 20 seconds of the door closing.....
With respect to bugsmashers and pisscats, I dont have an opinion either way.
NZ certainly has some local variations, as do most places, this one to me and the operation I'm part of, seems a bit redundant.
In any case, thats just my opinion.
P.S. Radio..you beat me to the post mate...my perspective is RPT worldwide Ops
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I'd just also like to add that I know for a fact that the our POB figures are available to ATC as they are forwarded electronically within 20 seconds of the door closing.....
Originally Posted by haughtney1
I'd just also like to add that I know for a fact that the our POB figures are available to ATC as they are forwarded electronically within 20 seconds of the door closing.....
If they are forwarded electronically, it's not via a medium that interfaces with any of our gear.
Remoak, IFIS is only available for AA, WN and CH towers. VFR ops to other aerodromes, flight planned or not, don't have any notification.
Of the IFIS notifications I've seen that have a POB entered, probably about half of them advise a different POB from that notified electronically in any case.
If all the "3rd party" (airline/flight ops/dispatch) systems worked every time, and all terminologies meant the same thing to everyone (which clearly they don't - I've still heard folk outside ATC refer to POB as meaning Passengers On Board, fairly recently, too) then there would be no need for it.
At my sleepy little hollow, which still gets a little bit busy from time to time despite reduced scheds since the big R, an extra second of two for POB hardly matters. And in the late eighties, when it was genuinely busy, and R/T discipline was more important, well, it didn't matter then, either.
If the powers that be decide it's not necessary, then so be it. I don't have a particularly strong preference. But speaking as someone who, in isolated instances, has to communicate important data to the rescue services, I'd rather have decent and reliable access to it. The most reliable has been demonstrated to me to be a report from the PIC.
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RadioSaigon
Sure... if you are air-filing, no problem. But if you are filing via IFIS (which 90% of operators will be doing) the facility exists to advise POB that way.
I'm not really fussed about that side of it, it's the requirement to advise tower/delivery on first contact that I think is ridiculous. Virtually everyone being required to do so at, say, Wellington, can either advise via IFIS or their company holds the information in any case. All the big airports now require advice of all VFR movements to be filed via IFIS anyway, and there is a POB box there on the form.
Tarq57
All the IFIS forms have a POB section, so assuming they have filed a flight plan, or a local movement advice for the main airports, the information is available to the FIO. Just hit the appropriate button on your Frequentis box and you have the info. Simple.
Whether the figures on the form are accurate is another story... but that is a simple matter of diligence.
Anyway... what happens at sleepy hollow airports isn't really the issue, it's what goes on at the busy ones that concerns me.
Sure... if you are air-filing, no problem. But if you are filing via IFIS (which 90% of operators will be doing) the facility exists to advise POB that way.
I'm not really fussed about that side of it, it's the requirement to advise tower/delivery on first contact that I think is ridiculous. Virtually everyone being required to do so at, say, Wellington, can either advise via IFIS or their company holds the information in any case. All the big airports now require advice of all VFR movements to be filed via IFIS anyway, and there is a POB box there on the form.
Tarq57
All the IFIS forms have a POB section, so assuming they have filed a flight plan, or a local movement advice for the main airports, the information is available to the FIO. Just hit the appropriate button on your Frequentis box and you have the info. Simple.
Whether the figures on the form are accurate is another story... but that is a simple matter of diligence.
Anyway... what happens at sleepy hollow airports isn't really the issue, it's what goes on at the busy ones that concerns me.
Remoak
Clearly that is the case perhaps you might enlighten us all as to what is well known in ATC circles.
You are clearly unaware of policy decisions surrounding this as a result of some shenanigans by the various operators on the WN-WB route. It is well-known in ATC circles.
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Not from any airline operating through Wellington that I've ever seen.
If they are forwarded electronically, it's not via a medium that interfaces with any of our gear.
If they are forwarded electronically, it's not via a medium that interfaces with any of our gear.
Not from any airline operating through Wellington that I've ever seen.
If they are forwarded electronically, it's not via a medium that interfaces with any of our gear.
If they are forwarded electronically, it's not via a medium that interfaces with any of our gear.
Originally Posted by Remoak
All the IFIS forms have a POB section, so assuming they have filed a flight plan, or a local movement advice for the main airports, the information is available to the FIO. Just hit the appropriate button on your Frequentis box and you have the info. Simple.
Although the FIO actually has nothing to do with IFIS inputs. And I've never heard of "it" being referred to as a Frequentis box before.
Still, you learn something every day.
Originally Posted by Remoak
Whether the figures on the form are accurate is another story... but that is a simple matter of diligence.
Of course, nobody filling in these forms ever has a no-show. Or a late check-in, do they?
And if they do, it's a simple matter of going back to the original submission, and amending it. Or is it?
Originally Posted by haughtney1
I totally agree Tarq57, but thats because we don't operate from Wellywood
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Originally Posted by Remoak
All the IFIS forms have a POB section, so assuming they have filed a flight plan, or a local movement advice for the main airports, the information is available to the FIO. Just hit the appropriate button on your Frequentis box and you have the info. Simple.
All the IFIS forms have a POB section, so assuming they have filed a flight plan, or a local movement advice for the main airports, the information is available to the FIO. Just hit the appropriate button on your Frequentis box and you have the info. Simple.
And 27/09 is correct... if it don't happen in Wellywood then it doesn't happen anywhere else, certainly not in either AA or HN (HN doesn't have the flight notification or eStrips).
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...and the POB entered on flight notifications into Auckland is more often than not different to that notified by the PIC. All of the plans are usually entered either the night before or 1st thing in the morning and aren't updated until the pilot calls on the DLV frequency. So if we "simply push the appropriate button on the Frequentis box" then we'd be passing the WRONG information unless the PIC confirms on first contact!!
Slackie, you know who I work for......our agents have told me to my face that our updated POB (pax + crew) within 20 seconds of the door being closed, and that all the concerned agencies (ATC) included, have access to this forthwith.
Would be intested to know if this wasn't the case, as I still maintain that this is a pointless addition to comms (from my perspective)
In the somewhat unlikely event that a non-local big twin should ever pop in here, flown by yourself, I'd prefer you not to call it Wellywood. Not that it matters a rats, of course. You'll still get a landing clearance.
But I agree, Miramar international has a better ring to it