Logbook a disgrace
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Behind a CB near you
Age: 44
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"the use of correction fluid is unacceptable"
The flying school where I learned to fly insisted on leaving a blank line between each flight/entry. This was to make it look neater or something. Somewhat impractical when you're doing several flights a day out in the real world.
I now fill in every line, only leave one blank line in between months.
ie: June 30 aa-bb-cc-aa
Blank line
July 01 aa-cc-bb-aa
July 02 dd-ee
etc, etc
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Australia
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RM,
Whilst not a requirement in Aus, without those "stamps" verifying your qualifications and recent activity in most of the countries ozzies seem to end up will NOT happen, so get the stamps, you just never know...
Whilst not a requirement in Aus, without those "stamps" verifying your qualifications and recent activity in most of the countries ozzies seem to end up will NOT happen, so get the stamps, you just never know...
Stamps, otherwise known as Sticky Labels, that go in the front of your logbook and show endorsements and ratings, that's one thing.
You need those in your logbook or an appropriate entry on your license.
Stamps put in by flying schools are simply a way for the flying school to certify that the times in your logbook while training for a particular license or rating are in agreement with their training records. A licensed pilot needs to certify that entries into the logbook are correct. While you're a student, this duty generally falls to your instructor. Once you are licensed, you are entirely capable of certifying your own logbook.
And if you happen to decide to re-write your entire logbook out, there's nothing stopping you re-certifying all the pages right from the start, yourself. All you're doing is making a statutory declaration that the information is correct. You do NOT need stamps from flying schools that may or may not even be still in business.
You need those in your logbook or an appropriate entry on your license.
Stamps put in by flying schools are simply a way for the flying school to certify that the times in your logbook while training for a particular license or rating are in agreement with their training records. A licensed pilot needs to certify that entries into the logbook are correct. While you're a student, this duty generally falls to your instructor. Once you are licensed, you are entirely capable of certifying your own logbook.
And if you happen to decide to re-write your entire logbook out, there's nothing stopping you re-certifying all the pages right from the start, yourself. All you're doing is making a statutory declaration that the information is correct. You do NOT need stamps from flying schools that may or may not even be still in business.
I re-wrote mine once because it was a mess, no regrets.
What I have found is that no one looks at them much anyway. Certainly not CASA in my chief pilot interviews (several of) and certainly not the folk I have ever worked for.
As a CP I look at the last few pages and do a sort of flip through looking for nothing in particular. I couldn't care less if there were stamps from a flying school or not. I look at the sticky label page, recent entries and the BFR, take TT at face value then go flying to see.
The best log books I have seen have things like photographs and other memorabilia sticky taped in. I admire this.
What I have found is that no one looks at them much anyway. Certainly not CASA in my chief pilot interviews (several of) and certainly not the folk I have ever worked for.
As a CP I look at the last few pages and do a sort of flip through looking for nothing in particular. I couldn't care less if there were stamps from a flying school or not. I look at the sticky label page, recent entries and the BFR, take TT at face value then go flying to see.
The best log books I have seen have things like photographs and other memorabilia sticky taped in. I admire this.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Usually Oz
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Well, I'm on logbook #6 and have committed every sin in the book according to some posters [with, I hasten to add, the exception of "Parker pen hours!!"
]
As to Spelunker's comments below, a good mate of mine, whose logbook entries are perfect copperplate, had his integrity questioned when he went for a QF job because they were so good! You can't win sometimes however, he DID get the job!]
G'day
]As to Spelunker's comments below, a good mate of mine, whose logbook entries are perfect copperplate, had his integrity questioned when he went for a QF job because they were so good! You can't win sometimes however, he DID get the job!]
G'day
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tjuntjuntjarra
Age: 54
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Why would you want to put MORE hours in than you already did? Its hard enough trying to squeeze your flights in to fit within the flight and duty limits as it is. Unless you're trying to get more time off which I can see the benefit of. "sorry boss, cant fly today, out of hours"
A well used looking log book probably just proves that you have been around a bit, would have thought the odd error here and there is normal.
Mine certainly improves as it gets further in, the first few pages are pretty rough.
Usually put in a few details if it was a particularly memorable trip, to remind me of it down the track.
Have not missed any lines, just total it up at the bottom in the space provided.
In fact had not ever considered using one page per month or missing lines.
Also not sure why would you take log book with you in your nav bag on a daily basis, would just get it knocked about more.
Mine certainly improves as it gets further in, the first few pages are pretty rough.
Usually put in a few details if it was a particularly memorable trip, to remind me of it down the track.
Have not missed any lines, just total it up at the bottom in the space provided.
In fact had not ever considered using one page per month or missing lines.
Also not sure why would you take log book with you in your nav bag on a daily basis, would just get it knocked about more.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tjuntjuntjarra
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As per my previous, self certification will not cut it, CP or equivalent certification will, most companies do actually have a stamp(the ink pad type) to cover this..
"In accordance with Civil Aviation Rule (CAR) 61.29, logbook entries must be certified by the owner in the space provided. Columns (1) to (12) are to be totalled and the total flight experience to be transferred to the left-hand pages.
Following the satisfactory completion of any flight test, ratng, or biennial review, the flight examiner or flight instructor who conducted this exercise is to certify competence in this logbook"
Following the satisfactory completion of any flight test, ratng, or biennial review, the flight examiner or flight instructor who conducted this exercise is to certify competence in this logbook"
On carrying your personal logbook in the plane with you:
Why? There is no requirement ever to lug the thing around with you, and I personally do feel uneasy if I ever do have to fly with it. There is also no prohibition on carrying your personal log book, unlike aircraft log books. I have carried mine on board, when flying somewhere for a reasonably permanent move, but for most of the time, my logbook stays safe and secure at home. It comes out from time to time when I update it from my records on the excel spreadsheet, and it leaves the house when I do renewals.
Capt Fathom, when you sign it, you are certifying that the entries are correct. How you determine this is up to you, but the basic premise is that you honestly believe them to be correct.
yowieII, self-certification most certainly is acceptable, and is how most people do it. There are some big flying schools out there that insist on certifying their staff's logbooks monthly, but that is for their own reasons, and not at all to do with being required to.
Why? There is no requirement ever to lug the thing around with you, and I personally do feel uneasy if I ever do have to fly with it. There is also no prohibition on carrying your personal log book, unlike aircraft log books. I have carried mine on board, when flying somewhere for a reasonably permanent move, but for most of the time, my logbook stays safe and secure at home. It comes out from time to time when I update it from my records on the excel spreadsheet, and it leaves the house when I do renewals.
Capt Fathom, when you sign it, you are certifying that the entries are correct. How you determine this is up to you, but the basic premise is that you honestly believe them to be correct.
yowieII, self-certification most certainly is acceptable, and is how most people do it. There are some big flying schools out there that insist on certifying their staff's logbooks monthly, but that is for their own reasons, and not at all to do with being required to.
Regardless of what may be printed in a logbook regarding the laws of another country, I only need to comply with the Australian regs.
Just because the company which printed my logbook provides a box to certify entries are correct does not mean that I have to use it.
Just because the company which printed my logbook provides a box to certify entries are correct does not mean that I have to use it.
be advised...
that if CASA get hold of yr logbook they will trawl thru all the pages to find lines not fully filled in and each one constitutes a criminal offence and a penalty.
If you think yr book is not perfect, you are not obliged to hand it over, as there may be "something" in there... like a line on fully filled in.. which may/ will convict you. You are not required to convict yrself. So, beware.
Does this reg for a criminal offence have a "safety" case?. No
Should an error as minor as this even be something that gives you a criminal record?. No
Does it fall within the Government guidelines for what constitutes a crime, or a strict liability offence? No, on both counts.
Why is it then so?
Because CASA has a punitive/reactive approach to aviation "safety" like no other.
And who gives a fcuk about the Government of the day anyway,we are in charge says CASA, we'll do it our way. To hell with the rules.
And thats why aviation in this country is in the sorry state its in today.
If you think yr book is not perfect, you are not obliged to hand it over, as there may be "something" in there... like a line on fully filled in.. which may/ will convict you. You are not required to convict yrself. So, beware.
Does this reg for a criminal offence have a "safety" case?. No
Should an error as minor as this even be something that gives you a criminal record?. No
Does it fall within the Government guidelines for what constitutes a crime, or a strict liability offence? No, on both counts.
Why is it then so?
Because CASA has a punitive/reactive approach to aviation "safety" like no other.
And who gives a fcuk about the Government of the day anyway,we are in charge says CASA, we'll do it our way. To hell with the rules.
And thats why aviation in this country is in the sorry state its in today.
self cert most likely wouldn't be accepted o/s, as per my experience..
Just so we are clear, I am not talking about endorsements/ Renewals/ Flight tests etc., just day to day flying.
The legal requirements have been posted previously!
Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 5.51
The main point is:
Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;
The rest is heresay and opinion!
Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 5.51
The main point is:
Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;
The rest is heresay and opinion!
Log book a mess
I was pretty messy with my first logbook with lots of whiteout. 2nd logbook had alot less whiteout in it. No one cares. If you are doing the same routes they can verify an error with other flights on the page. That said neither CASA or any airline I've interviewed with including major carriers have ever questioned the integrity of the entries.
Try putting pictures in your log book. It puts a story to your entries and takes the focus away from all of the messy writing
Try putting pictures in your log book. It puts a story to your entries and takes the focus away from all of the messy writing