Outrageous Charge
Re-fuelers - *tip* Don't call it a "call out fee", call it an "after hours service fee".
This will prevent the second and subsequent pilots in the queue wanting to punch your lights out after refusing to pay.
This will prevent the second and subsequent pilots in the queue wanting to punch your lights out after refusing to pay.
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YPJT, I might be mistaken always confuse aerodromes but I belive newman has underwing bowser in a different location to overwing. Once landed there and pulled up and shutdown to what I thought was overwing.. needless to say with the outside temps my oils were to hot to start up again so sat on the ground for 30mins to make them cool down before i could go anywhere :S
Over the last few years I have seen a number of posts regarding the practice of refuellers charging each aircraft a call out fee even when there are 2 or 3 aircraft lined up at the same time. On the surface of it I can see how this can be seen to be greed on the part of the refueller.
It has been many years since I have covered call out for refuelling at a country aerodrome.
What seems not to be understood is that one of possibly two situations exist.
The refuelling agent is paying some one to be on call for the out of hours period. In this case he or she is trying to provide a service to us pilots and he needs to recover the costs involved. The recovery of the cost to the refueller is most probably averaged out over an expected number of call outs over a set period of time. If they all come at the same time, the cost to the refueller to provide the service doed not decrease because he still has to cover the remaining out of hours period.
Alternatively the refueller is making him or herself available for the out of hours cover and the only remuneration received is the call out fee. This person basically is on standby and can not do all of the normal things that they might otherwise do. ie have a beer etc. How many of us would be prepared to give up our out weekends for an uncertain remuneration.
Then there is the prodlem of the pilot who absolutely positively must have fuel at a set time and who is going to be in a desperate hurry so could you be at the airport ready to refuel at "x" time. Then does not turn up at all or 3 hours late.
Most refuellers are simply trying to provide a service and receive a reasonable payment for it.
Obviously the call out fee needs to be reasonable for it to all work out to every ones benefit.
The alternative is for fuel to only be available during normal business hours and we all know that that does not work for our industry, be it for a private or commercial flight.
Give the refueller a break and provided the call out fee is reasonable, smile, pay up, say thank you and be on your way hopefully having received satisfactory service.
I do not know what the margin on a liter of fuel is today, but back when I was refuelling it sure as hell did not cover the cost of providing out of hours service.
It has been many years since I have covered call out for refuelling at a country aerodrome.
What seems not to be understood is that one of possibly two situations exist.
The refuelling agent is paying some one to be on call for the out of hours period. In this case he or she is trying to provide a service to us pilots and he needs to recover the costs involved. The recovery of the cost to the refueller is most probably averaged out over an expected number of call outs over a set period of time. If they all come at the same time, the cost to the refueller to provide the service doed not decrease because he still has to cover the remaining out of hours period.
Alternatively the refueller is making him or herself available for the out of hours cover and the only remuneration received is the call out fee. This person basically is on standby and can not do all of the normal things that they might otherwise do. ie have a beer etc. How many of us would be prepared to give up our out weekends for an uncertain remuneration.
Then there is the prodlem of the pilot who absolutely positively must have fuel at a set time and who is going to be in a desperate hurry so could you be at the airport ready to refuel at "x" time. Then does not turn up at all or 3 hours late.
Most refuellers are simply trying to provide a service and receive a reasonable payment for it.
Obviously the call out fee needs to be reasonable for it to all work out to every ones benefit.
The alternative is for fuel to only be available during normal business hours and we all know that that does not work for our industry, be it for a private or commercial flight.
Give the refueller a break and provided the call out fee is reasonable, smile, pay up, say thank you and be on your way hopefully having received satisfactory service.
I do not know what the margin on a liter of fuel is today, but back when I was refuelling it sure as hell did not cover the cost of providing out of hours service.
I totally agree with pcx(obviously an experienced refueller).
A bit of courtesy go a long way in aviation. Not to mention airmanship. If you call in advance in a nice and professional manner advicing ETA I am sure service will be provided professionally. It has not let me down in my 30 years or so flying private or commercial.
I had my experience with a well known BH refueller once around 1998 when i called him at 1900 local time advising him that I will be passing trough on the way to AS landing BH around 2300 local. His response was" Not a chance in hell" since it was his daughters birthday that night and he would not give a damn. Than I said the magic word "PLEASE". That changed his tone to: Buzz the town at 500 feet so I can hear you".(There was no need to break rules since I was flying a QUEENAIR) He was there waiting for me when I landed.
No call out fee, friendly service because I have treated him like a professional which he deserved.
The moral to my story.....
Respect our refuellers.....They keep us in the air.
A bit of courtesy go a long way in aviation. Not to mention airmanship. If you call in advance in a nice and professional manner advicing ETA I am sure service will be provided professionally. It has not let me down in my 30 years or so flying private or commercial.
I had my experience with a well known BH refueller once around 1998 when i called him at 1900 local time advising him that I will be passing trough on the way to AS landing BH around 2300 local. His response was" Not a chance in hell" since it was his daughters birthday that night and he would not give a damn. Than I said the magic word "PLEASE". That changed his tone to: Buzz the town at 500 feet so I can hear you".(There was no need to break rules since I was flying a QUEENAIR) He was there waiting for me when I landed.
No call out fee, friendly service because I have treated him like a professional which he deserved.
The moral to my story.....
Respect our refuellers.....They keep us in the air.
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We seem to have become bogged down in call-out fees for refuelling. My original post asked if it is legal to stop airport users from leaving the airport by locking the gate preventing movement both ways. Whilst seeking legal opinion here's another question - is there any legal limit to landing charges? Or should we soon look forward to a $1,500 landing fee at Woop Woop for our 2 seat mark 1 bug smasher? Anyone out there with legal expertise in these areas?
As far as I know, there are no specific guidelines on what airports can charge for or how much. Having said that, most seem to benchmark themselves against each other in the same region depending upon what type of services and facilities are available.
As for your mates at YKOW, they probably have not sought or been given any advice on how to achieive the required level of security in accordance with their TSP. Hence, they think the gate has to be padlocked at all times and it has to be one of them that opens it.
As for stopping your aircraft from departing? I recall threads here a long time ago talking about aircraft that had vehicles, tractors, piles of sand etc put in front of an aircraft because of non- payment of landing / parking charges. I would doubt that action could be interpreted as endangering an aircraft.
As for your mates at YKOW, they probably have not sought or been given any advice on how to achieive the required level of security in accordance with their TSP. Hence, they think the gate has to be padlocked at all times and it has to be one of them that opens it.
As for stopping your aircraft from departing? I recall threads here a long time ago talking about aircraft that had vehicles, tractors, piles of sand etc put in front of an aircraft because of non- payment of landing / parking charges. I would doubt that action could be interpreted as endangering an aircraft.
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YPJT, I'm not talking about departing. I'm talking about arriving. I'm talking about parking the a/c and then what.............. I didn't land at YKOW just to smell the flowers INSIDE the perimeter fence. Locking PX and crew INSIDE the airport is simply B.S The whole idea of security fences (don't get me started) was to keep undesirables out NOT legitimate users in. Makes as much sense as 22 month ASIC cards.
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I think the questions should be asked about why a GST is applied to "this service" which could be more accurately described as extortion.
If you charge a landing fee, one would logically assume that gives you the right to carry out whatever business you landed there to conduct.
It doesn't appear that fuel is even mentioned or needed.
And why would you entertain the notion of it being a good idea to address your concerns to the extortionist?
Isn't that a bit like reasoning with a bank robber instead of calling the police?
BTW. The airport was most probably paid for with taxpayers money and the "operator" who probably never put a cent into it, now sees fit to charge that same taxpayer again to use it, plus levy another fee and then add another tax.
rutan around is obviously at fault here, should have read the fine print.
Strewth!
If you charge a landing fee, one would logically assume that gives you the right to carry out whatever business you landed there to conduct.
It doesn't appear that fuel is even mentioned or needed.
And why would you entertain the notion of it being a good idea to address your concerns to the extortionist?
Isn't that a bit like reasoning with a bank robber instead of calling the police?
BTW. The airport was most probably paid for with taxpayers money and the "operator" who probably never put a cent into it, now sees fit to charge that same taxpayer again to use it, plus levy another fee and then add another tax.
rutan around is obviously at fault here, should have read the fine print.
Strewth!
Last edited by Frank Arouet; 22nd Apr 2011 at 02:56.
For the record, I agree that the charge is exhorbitant and probably should not be made in the first place. My experience though has usually been that a desired result can be far better achieved by going to the source of the problem, or at least someone who can deal with it rather than having a sook on PPRUNE.
Last edited by YPJT; 22nd Apr 2011 at 03:40.
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I've amended the post YPJT.
I'm still smarting over the call to be kind to our fuel agents. I never imagined they were in it for philanthropic reasons. Always thought they were in it to make a quid. Just goes to show how out of touch one can be. Must remember I'm only the customer.
If I have need to fly to YKOW, I'll take a bottle of fine red for the gatekeeper in gratitude of him doing such a fine job.
That would be OK wouldn't it?
I'm still smarting over the call to be kind to our fuel agents. I never imagined they were in it for philanthropic reasons. Always thought they were in it to make a quid. Just goes to show how out of touch one can be. Must remember I'm only the customer.
If I have need to fly to YKOW, I'll take a bottle of fine red for the gatekeeper in gratitude of him doing such a fine job.
That would be OK wouldn't it?
Frank,
you and I have locked horns on previous occasions, but that's ok, all part of the rich tapestry of PPRuNe.
I tend to work both sides of the fence here both as a pilot and in aviation management. Some airport operators clearly don't have a clue when it comes to a reasonable charging regime or how to provide access during or after hours to their users. I would hazard a guess that the guys at KOW fall into this category. Someone from industry whether Australian Airports Association or other industry representative body needs to give them some advice. Maybe they just don't care either. They have their small regular band of operators who are able to pass the cost on to customers and anyone else can either suck it up or go somewhere else. Very sad state of affairs indeed if that is what is occurring.
you and I have locked horns on previous occasions, but that's ok, all part of the rich tapestry of PPRuNe.
I tend to work both sides of the fence here both as a pilot and in aviation management. Some airport operators clearly don't have a clue when it comes to a reasonable charging regime or how to provide access during or after hours to their users. I would hazard a guess that the guys at KOW fall into this category. Someone from industry whether Australian Airports Association or other industry representative body needs to give them some advice. Maybe they just don't care either. They have their small regular band of operators who are able to pass the cost on to customers and anyone else can either suck it up or go somewhere else. Very sad state of affairs indeed if that is what is occurring.
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The opening post said he contacted the CEO but she took advice from the caretaker. You would expect this sort of thing in Zimbabwe, not Australia. The whole show is just one more example of what happens when you give authority to arrogant individuals that are ignorant or incapable of comprehending basic low level governance or responsibility for community needs.
I'd point a bone at the lot of them.
I'd point a bone at the lot of them.
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YJPT, Seeking information and expressing opinion can hardly be categorised as having a 'sook'. I was originally asking whether anyone knew who had jurisdiction here. I find it surprising that govt doesn't set charging limits at aerodromes that have been fully paid for by govt, fenced by govt, and are a monopoly with no chance of that situation changing. I find it even more surprising when that airport is the ONLY access to the town for much of the year. I am also surprised that Workplace Health and Safety don't take an interest. I can't walk on a plank 3 metres above the ground but one of my passengers could die of a heart attack clinging to a padlocked gate (dramatic drum-roll). Cutting or glueing the locks or pissing on the caretakers door (as suggested to me once) won't solve the problem.
Overcharging is part of the downward spiral of GA. As landing and fueling charges rise fewer planes use overcharging airports. Less traffic means less income, so charges per aircraft are raised further, again reducing traffic. We all know where this is going. With costs sky high and many places not viable to land many current and potential GA pilots are seeking less expensive interests.
Our capitalist society only works properly when there is competition. When competition doesn't exist or is impractical (eg airports) then govt must impose checks and balances, otherwise unscrupulous operators take advantage of the situation as we are seeing now. When I'm up YKOW way next I will seek a face-to-face meeting with the community CEO, but it would appear that the heavy ammunition I was seeking does not yet exist. Your advice re achieving the correct level of security in accordance with their TSP is good and will certainly be passed on to the CEO.
Cheers, RA
Overcharging is part of the downward spiral of GA. As landing and fueling charges rise fewer planes use overcharging airports. Less traffic means less income, so charges per aircraft are raised further, again reducing traffic. We all know where this is going. With costs sky high and many places not viable to land many current and potential GA pilots are seeking less expensive interests.
Our capitalist society only works properly when there is competition. When competition doesn't exist or is impractical (eg airports) then govt must impose checks and balances, otherwise unscrupulous operators take advantage of the situation as we are seeing now. When I'm up YKOW way next I will seek a face-to-face meeting with the community CEO, but it would appear that the heavy ammunition I was seeking does not yet exist. Your advice re achieving the correct level of security in accordance with their TSP is good and will certainly be passed on to the CEO.
Cheers, RA
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I'm sure it is the Council who is responsible for the charges at the airport as well as installing security staff. I would phone the council and confirm the charges are correct (gate opening fee) and go from there. Council may not be aware of this?Then go to the municipal association equivalent in QLD and chat with them.
Is the airport surrounded by aboriginal land?
Is the airport surrounded by aboriginal land?
Simple,
Land where you want. Dont pay. What are they going to do about it?
They cant stop you landing or taking off. Cut the locks off the gate. Gee, officer I dunno who did that. It was like that when I first saw it.
Land where you want. Dont pay. What are they going to do about it?
They cant stop you landing or taking off. Cut the locks off the gate. Gee, officer I dunno who did that. It was like that when I first saw it.
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Blueyonda
Yes so even if you wanted to you can't buy land for an alternative airport. One of the current problems with airports on aboriginal land is that since CDEP was abolished CEO's have very little money so they grab as much as they can from their limited options. eg $100 + landing fees, $50 per pallet barge unloading fee, $300 for accommodation I wouldn't put my dog in (not all these happened at YKOW).
Cheers RA
Yes so even if you wanted to you can't buy land for an alternative airport. One of the current problems with airports on aboriginal land is that since CDEP was abolished CEO's have very little money so they grab as much as they can from their limited options. eg $100 + landing fees, $50 per pallet barge unloading fee, $300 for accommodation I wouldn't put my dog in (not all these happened at YKOW).
Cheers RA
ERSA states to contact the Ad operator for charges. Did you? Perhaps the gate is normally unlocked and you arrived outside those hours. Were you there on business or dropped in ie charter or private? Maybe they don't charge those on business involving the community. Maybe they've had their coded lock broken too many times, or found the gate left propped open too many times so that now a padlock and chain is the easiest way to secure the airport. Maybe someone has to make a dedicated trip out to the strip if you arrive unannounced? Maybe they feel they don't have to subsidise your hobby?
With an attitude like that, I bet you're welcomed everywhere.
There's lots of ways to stop you taking off again, trust me.
Simple,
Land where you want. Dont pay. What are they going to do about it?
They cant stop you landing or taking off. Cut the locks off the gate.
Land where you want. Dont pay. What are they going to do about it?
They cant stop you landing or taking off. Cut the locks off the gate.
There's lots of ways to stop you taking off again, trust me.
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The refuel man at Geraldton left a bad taste in my mouth when, after arranging by phone to be refueled while he was there for a RPT flight, he gouged me and 3 other aircraft for the "call-out fee".
And of course, it was cash only.
And of course, it was cash only.