Landing direction at non towered aerodromes
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
At Orange one night, I was asked to hold at the holding point while an RPT aircraft who in their words was "approaching 15 miles", landed!
I might add it was CAVOK...
I might add it was CAVOK...
Bottums Up
I sent a very nervous older gent for his first solo many moons ago at Bundy, RWY14.
He wasn't happy, and I was most displeased that despite e traffic knowing it was a first solo, the Shed driver from Gladstone was most happy to push in and land downwind on the non-duty runway.
Poor student had to do a missed approach on his first solo when he found himself on final for 14 with a Shed on short final for 32!
He wasn't happy, and I was most displeased that despite e traffic knowing it was a first solo, the Shed driver from Gladstone was most happy to push in and land downwind on the non-duty runway.
Poor student had to do a missed approach on his first solo when he found himself on final for 14 with a Shed on short final for 32!
To defend the RPT guys, at 15 miles they are often still doing 250 KIAS (or barbers pole in a Turboprop usually 240+) and will slow up to 200 by 10 and approach speed by 5.
This means they will be established on final in 3 or so minutes if they are tracking for a straight in approach.
It gets very busy in a transport category aircraft. You may think having twice as many Pilots means half the work. It actually means twice the work as you need to repeat everything to each other and discuss separation. Along with this you have checklists, configuration challenges and responses and standard calls.
Help them out if you can, after all, the Captain could have his hands full dealing with a 300 hour cadet
This means they will be established on final in 3 or so minutes if they are tracking for a straight in approach.
It gets very busy in a transport category aircraft. You may think having twice as many Pilots means half the work. It actually means twice the work as you need to repeat everything to each other and discuss separation. Along with this you have checklists, configuration challenges and responses and standard calls.
Help them out if you can, after all, the Captain could have his hands full dealing with a 300 hour cadet
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wentworth
Age: 59
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Help them out to fly illegally?
This "Captain" could be about to spear into two 30 hour students, also straining to get everything done correctly.
If this only happened in the occasional emergency it wouldn't be an issue, but repeated cost cutting has an inevitable conclusion
This "Captain" could be about to spear into two 30 hour students, also straining to get everything done correctly.
If this only happened in the occasional emergency it wouldn't be an issue, but repeated cost cutting has an inevitable conclusion
Help them out to fly illegally?
This "Captain" could be about to spear into two 30 hour students, also straining to get everything done correctly.
If this only happened in the occasional emergency it wouldn't be an issue, but repeated cost cutting has an inevitable conclusion
This "Captain" could be about to spear into two 30 hour students, also straining to get everything done correctly.
If this only happened in the occasional emergency it wouldn't be an issue, but repeated cost cutting has an inevitable conclusion
Imagine being the skipper on that RPT aeroplane flying into a CTAF with a low time FO and 30 hour non native English students fumbling their way around the circuit.....
You politely want to tell them to get out the way! If that means asking them to wait at the holding point, then so be it. I've been the charter Pilot giggling to myself at the RPT guys asking me what I had for breakfast. In fact we'd all pull the piss out of them over beers after work.
After being that Captain going into places like Kununurra with bungles
departures or arrivals in full swing, let me tell you, it's a pain in the arse!
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Help them out if you can, after all, the Captain could have his hands full dealing with a 300 hour cadet
You politely want to tell them to get out the way! If that means asking them to wait at the holding point, then so be it.
To revert back to my example, I backtracked, departed and passed over the inbound aircraft at 10 miles, 8500 above them!
Quote:
Help them out if you can, after all, the Captain could have his hands full dealing with a 300 hour cadet
Hopefully the F/O is flying, with the Captain organising separation!
Quote:
You politely want to tell them to get out the way! If that means asking them to wait at the holding point, then so be it.
What if the pilot is not a student and operating an aircraft with equal performance to that of the RPT? You're are saying I should wait for an aircraft that is on a 15 (possibly more) mile final?
To revert back to my example, I backtracked, departed and passed over the inbound aircraft at 10 miles, 8500 above them!
Help them out if you can, after all, the Captain could have his hands full dealing with a 300 hour cadet
Hopefully the F/O is flying, with the Captain organising separation!
Quote:
You politely want to tell them to get out the way! If that means asking them to wait at the holding point, then so be it.
What if the pilot is not a student and operating an aircraft with equal performance to that of the RPT? You're are saying I should wait for an aircraft that is on a 15 (possibly more) mile final?
To revert back to my example, I backtracked, departed and passed over the inbound aircraft at 10 miles, 8500 above them!
"I understand your request, if it's okay with you, I'm going to backtrack line up and roll, depart to the xxx, climb above your level, then intercept the xxx track and climb to FLXX"
Once they know they are dealing with someone who is not going to do something famously stupid, they are happy.
Remember also, a landing aeroplane has right of way over an aeroplane who is taking off
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
... From 15 miles out
I think we all agree on cooperation works most of the time but if I had an RPT wanting a straight in which also had a large tailwind component and was being a bit stupid, a not so subtle question about his d/w limits for all to hear. At most ctaf's I go to the RPT folk are pretty good, must be a lot of cowboys south of the border.
I think we all agree on cooperation works most of the time but if I had an RPT wanting a straight in which also had a large tailwind component and was being a bit stupid, a not so subtle question about his d/w limits for all to hear. At most ctaf's I go to the RPT folk are pretty good, must be a lot of cowboys south of the border.
----- must be a lot of cowboys south of the border.
If you mean the NSW/QLD. border, the answer is: "there are !!", but QLD is not short of them either, usually flying small turbo-props.
At Roma, I have sat and watched the same guy, three times in the same day, arrive in a Kingair, against the traffic, wind was 15-20 tail, well beyond the AFM limit for the aeroplane. His "attitude" on the radio was commensurate with his observed operation.
Other airport users were told to "bugger off", quite literally, until he landed.
What a wonderful example to aspiring professional pilots, training there at the time.
Tootle pip!!
LeadSled,
Might be the same KingAir I saw one night try to taxi between the terminal and a Metro parked on the bay at EML! Some frantic waving from our crew stopped him hitting the wing tip, but we had to walk him through as he'd already gone too far!
Might be the same KingAir I saw one night try to taxi between the terminal and a Metro parked on the bay at EML! Some frantic waving from our crew stopped him hitting the wing tip, but we had to walk him through as he'd already gone too far!
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Leadie, you sat there all day we don't call it the Roma coma for nothing
but that is some test of patience. Did you go and educate the silly sod with both barrels ?
Clearly he was paying for fuel and not brakes.
Probably covering up a lack of skill....as flying a circuit with other traffic is too hard
we don't call it the Roma coma for nothing but that is some test of patience. Did you go and educate the silly sod with both barrels ?Clearly he was paying for fuel and not brakes.
Probably covering up a lack of skill....as flying a circuit with other traffic is too hard
Last edited by Jabawocky; 22nd Apr 2011 at 00:29.
Hey Jaba,
I was not referring to landing with a tailwind. I was trying to give you bugsmashers some info from the other side of the fence. Fortunately I have the balanced perspective of having being on both sides of the fence at one time.
As for landing with a tailwind, you'll generally find the RTOW/WAT charts for transport aeroplanes only go to 10 knots. Most ops manuals also stipulate this as a limitation.
I was not referring to landing with a tailwind. I was trying to give you bugsmashers some info from the other side of the fence. Fortunately I have the balanced perspective of having being on both sides of the fence at one time.
As for landing with a tailwind, you'll generally find the RTOW/WAT charts for transport aeroplanes only go to 10 knots. Most ops manuals also stipulate this as a limitation.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australia
Age: 41
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airmanship should come from both sides of the fence. The local pilots should try to help accommodate a busy RPT (with only a 25 min turn around at port) into the circuit. I know rules are rules but why doesn't everyone just try a little more initiative and help one another out. But going back to post 1>> If communication broke down using standard phraseology, why don't you try talking to them in standard English ? I say the above with all respect
Bottums Up
Originally Posted by Jaba
from Gladstone and on 32? must be dumb, thats the long way
I can't recall if the FSU was still in operation.
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Remember also, a landing aeroplane has right of way over an aeroplane who is taking off
PS: Just having a flick through the AIP. Enroute 40.1.8 is an interesting read and somewhat relevant to the discussion from both sides...
Last edited by Howard Hughes; 22nd Apr 2011 at 06:39.
