Landing direction at non towered aerodromes
Folks,
I must be going soft in my old age, I am forced to agree with the several posts by Bloggsie on this thread.
Seriously, the below is the current rule, the proposed equivalent for Part 91 is essentially the same.
As to 15 kts down wind, what type, and was it approved for that downwind component? Very few aircraft are!
For those who think "training" is a justification, please read carefully, regardless any aircraft operating out of wind, or not on the runway nearest to into wind, must give way to all other traffic.
Please note the penalties and the strict liability offenses.
The wording in the AIP has to be interpreted in terms of CAR 166 complete.
In my various current activities, I find general deficiencies in the knowledge of CURRENT rules for operations "in the vicinity" of airfields in Glass G, regardless of license type.
One well known large "Regional" has quite recently sent an extensive briefing to all its pilots, reminding them of the rules, and of the fact that being RPT gives them precisely no priority.
Tootle pip!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subdivision 2 Operating on and in the vicinity of non‑controlled aerodromes
166 Definitions for Subdivision 2
(1) In this Subdivision:
in the vicinity of, in relation to a non-controlled aerodrome, has the meaning given by subregulation (2).
radiotelephone qualification includes a certificate, relating to the operation of radiotelephone equipment, issued by any of the following organisations in accordance with the organisation’s operations manual:
(a) Australian Ballooning Federation Incorporated;
(b) Australian Sport Rotorcraft Association Incorporated;
(c) The Gliding Federation of Australia Incorporated;
(d) Hang Gliding Federation of Australia Incorporated;
(e) Recreational Aviation Australia Incorporated.
(2) An aircraft is in the vicinity of a non‑controlled aerodrome if it is within:
(a) airspace other than controlled airspace; and
(b) 10 miles from the aerodrome; and
(c) a height above the aerodrome that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome.
(3) For paragraphs (2) (b) and (c), if an aerodrome reference point for the aerodrome is published in the AIP, the distance or height must be measured from that point.
166A General requirements for aircraft on the manoeuvring area or in the vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome
(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft commits an offence if:
(a) the aircraft is being operated on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non‑controlled aerodrome; and
(b) the pilot engages in conduct; and
(c) the conduct results in the contravention of a rule set out in subregulation (2).
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(2) The rules are the following:
(a) the pilot must maintain a lookout for other aircraft that are being operated on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome to avoid collision;
(b) the pilot must ensure that the aircraft does not cause a danger to other aircraft that are being operated on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome;
(c) if the pilot is flying in the vicinity of the aerodrome, the pilot must:
(i) jointhe circuit pattern for the aerodrome; or
(ii) avoid the circuit pattern for the aerodrome;
(d) if the pilot joins the circuit pattern for the aerodrome for a landing at the aerodrome, the pilot must, after joining the circuit pattern, make all turns in accordance with subregulation (3);
(e) if the pilot takes off from the aerodrome, the pilot must, after taking off, make all turns in accordance with subregulation (3) while the aircraft is flying in the circuit pattern for the aerodrome;
(f) subject to subregulation (4), if the pilot takes off from the aerodrome, the pilot must maintain the same track from the take‑off until the aircraft is 500 feet above the terrain;
(g) the pilot must not:
(i) take off from a part of the aerodrome that is outside the landing area of the aerodrome; or
(ii) land the aircraft on a part of the aerodrome that is outside the landing area of the aerodrome;
(h) if the pilot takes off from, or lands at, the aerodrome, the pilot must take off or land into the wind if, at the time of the take-off or landing:
(i) the pilot is not permitted under subregulation (5) to take off or land downwind; and
(ii) it is practicable to take off or land into the wind.
(3) For paragraphs (2) (d) and (e), the turns must be made:
(a) if CASA has, under subregulation 92 (2), directed that all turns at the aerodrome be made in a particular direction —in accordance with CASA’s directions; or
(b) if paragraph (a) does not apply and visual signals are displayed at the aerodrome indicating a direction to make all turns — in accordance with the visual signals; or
(c) in any other case — to the pilot’s left.
Note Directions under subregulation 92 (2) are published in the AIP.
(4) The rule in paragraph (2) (f) does not apply if a change to the track is necessary to avoid the terrain.
(5) For subparagraph (2) (h) (i), the pilot in command of an aircraft may take off or land downwind at a non-controlled aerodrome if:
(a) the aircraft’s flight manual allows the aircraft to take off or land downwind; and
(b) after considering any other aircraft that are being operated on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome, the pilot believes that it is safe to do so.
(6) An offence against subregulation (1) in relation to any of paragraphs (2) (a) to (g) is an offence of strict liability.
Note The pilot in command of an aircraft must comply with the flight manual, or other equivalent document for the aircraft, as required by regulation 138.
166B Carrying out a straight-in approach
(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft commits an offence if:
(a) the pilot carries out a straight‑in approach to land at a non‑controlled aerodrome; and
(b) the pilot engages in conduct; and
(c) the conduct results in the contravention of a rule set out in subregulation (2).
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(2) The rules are the following:
(a) before starting the approach, the pilot must determine:
(i) the wind direction at the aerodrome; and
(ii) the runways in use at the aerodrome;
(b) the pilot must give way to any other aircraft flying in the circuit pattern for the aerodrome;
(c) subject to subregulation (3), the pilot must carry out all manoeuvring, to establish the aircraft on final approach, at least 3 miles from the threshold of the runway that the pilot intends to use for landing.
(3) The rule in paragraph (2) (c) does not apply to the pilot if he or she is carrying out the approach:
(a) using an instrument approach procedure; and
(b) in IMC.
(4) An offence against subregulation (1) in relation to paragraph (2) (a) or (b) is an offence of strict liability.
166C Responsibility for broadcasting on VHF radio
(1) If:
(a) an aircraft is operating on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non-controlled aerodrome; and
(b) the aircraft is carrying a serviceable aircraft VHF radio; and
(c) the pilot in command of the aircraft holds a radiotelephone qualification;
the pilot is responsible for making a broadcast on the VHF frequency in use for the aerodrome in accordance with subregulation (2).
(2) The pilot must make a broadcast that includes the following information whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft:
(a) the name of the aerodrome;
(b) the aircraft’s type and call sign;
(c) the position of the aircraft and the pilot’s intentions.
Note 1 See the AIP for the recommended format for broadcasting the information mentioned in this regulation.
Note 2 For the requirement to maintain a listening watch, see regulation 243.
166D Designation of non-controlled aerodromes
(1) For paragraph 98 (5A) (a) of the Act, CASA may issue a legislative instrument that states that a specified non‑controlled aerodrome is a designated non‑controlled aerodrome.
(2) CASA must ensure that details of the designation of an aerodrome under subregulation (1) are published in AIP or NOTAMS.
166E Requirements for operating on or in the vicinity of certified, military, registered or designated non-controlled aerodromes
(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft commits an offence if:
(a) he or she operates the aircraft on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non-controlled aerodrome that is:
(i) a certified aerodrome; or
(ii) a military aerodrome; or
(iii) a registered aerodrome; or
(iv) specified as a designated non-controlled aerodrome in a legislative instrument issued by CASA under regulation 166D; and
(b) he or she is not permitted to do so by subregulation (2), (3) or (4).
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
Note 1 For the definitions of certified aerodrome and registered aerodrome, see the CASR Dictionary.
Note 2 For the definition of military aerodrome, see subregulation 2 (1).
Aircraft with serviceable radio and pilot with radiotelephone qualification
(2) The pilot in command of an aircraft may operate the aircraft on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non-controlled aerodrome mentioned in paragraph (1) (a) if:
(a) the aircraft is carrying a serviceable aircraft VHF radio; and
(b) the pilot holds a radiotelephone qualification.
Flight in VMC during the day and in company
(3) The pilot in command of an aircraft may operate the aircraft on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non-controlled aerodrome mentioned in paragraph (1) (a) if:
(a) either:
(i) the aircraft is not carrying a serviceable aircraft VHF radio; or
(ii) the pilot does not hold a radiotelephone qualification; and
(b) the aircraft is being operated for a flight:
(i) that is in VMC; and
(ii) that is not a night flight; and
(iii) that is undertaken in company with another aircraft; and
(c) the other aircraft is carrying a serviceable aircraft VHF radio; and
(d) the pilot in command of the other aircraft holds a radiotelephone qualification.
Unserviceable radio
(4) The pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying an unserviceable aircraft VHF radio may operate the aircraft on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non-controlled aerodrome mentioned in paragraph (1) (a) if:
(a) either:
(i) the radio became unserviceable during the flight; or
(ii) the purpose of the flight is to take the radio to a place where it can be repaired; and
(b) for an aircraft that is flying in the vicinity of the aerodrome — the pilot ensures that each of the following are switched on:
(i) the aircraft’s landing lights (if any);
(ii) the aircraft’s anti-collision lights (if any);
(iii) the aircraft’s secondary surveillance radar transponder (if any); and
(c) for an aircraft arriving at the aerodrome — the pilot joins the circuit pattern for the aerodrome on the cross‑wind leg of the circuit pattern.
(5) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability
I must be going soft in my old age, I am forced to agree with the several posts by Bloggsie on this thread.
Seriously, the below is the current rule, the proposed equivalent for Part 91 is essentially the same.
As to 15 kts down wind, what type, and was it approved for that downwind component? Very few aircraft are!
For those who think "training" is a justification, please read carefully, regardless any aircraft operating out of wind, or not on the runway nearest to into wind, must give way to all other traffic.
Please note the penalties and the strict liability offenses.
The wording in the AIP has to be interpreted in terms of CAR 166 complete.
In my various current activities, I find general deficiencies in the knowledge of CURRENT rules for operations "in the vicinity" of airfields in Glass G, regardless of license type.
One well known large "Regional" has quite recently sent an extensive briefing to all its pilots, reminding them of the rules, and of the fact that being RPT gives them precisely no priority.
Tootle pip!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subdivision 2 Operating on and in the vicinity of non‑controlled aerodromes
166 Definitions for Subdivision 2
(1) In this Subdivision:
in the vicinity of, in relation to a non-controlled aerodrome, has the meaning given by subregulation (2).
radiotelephone qualification includes a certificate, relating to the operation of radiotelephone equipment, issued by any of the following organisations in accordance with the organisation’s operations manual:
(a) Australian Ballooning Federation Incorporated;
(b) Australian Sport Rotorcraft Association Incorporated;
(c) The Gliding Federation of Australia Incorporated;
(d) Hang Gliding Federation of Australia Incorporated;
(e) Recreational Aviation Australia Incorporated.
(2) An aircraft is in the vicinity of a non‑controlled aerodrome if it is within:
(a) airspace other than controlled airspace; and
(b) 10 miles from the aerodrome; and
(c) a height above the aerodrome that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome.
(3) For paragraphs (2) (b) and (c), if an aerodrome reference point for the aerodrome is published in the AIP, the distance or height must be measured from that point.
166A General requirements for aircraft on the manoeuvring area or in the vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome
(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft commits an offence if:
(a) the aircraft is being operated on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non‑controlled aerodrome; and
(b) the pilot engages in conduct; and
(c) the conduct results in the contravention of a rule set out in subregulation (2).
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(2) The rules are the following:
(a) the pilot must maintain a lookout for other aircraft that are being operated on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome to avoid collision;
(b) the pilot must ensure that the aircraft does not cause a danger to other aircraft that are being operated on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome;
(c) if the pilot is flying in the vicinity of the aerodrome, the pilot must:
(i) jointhe circuit pattern for the aerodrome; or
(ii) avoid the circuit pattern for the aerodrome;
(d) if the pilot joins the circuit pattern for the aerodrome for a landing at the aerodrome, the pilot must, after joining the circuit pattern, make all turns in accordance with subregulation (3);
(e) if the pilot takes off from the aerodrome, the pilot must, after taking off, make all turns in accordance with subregulation (3) while the aircraft is flying in the circuit pattern for the aerodrome;
(f) subject to subregulation (4), if the pilot takes off from the aerodrome, the pilot must maintain the same track from the take‑off until the aircraft is 500 feet above the terrain;
(g) the pilot must not:
(i) take off from a part of the aerodrome that is outside the landing area of the aerodrome; or
(ii) land the aircraft on a part of the aerodrome that is outside the landing area of the aerodrome;
(h) if the pilot takes off from, or lands at, the aerodrome, the pilot must take off or land into the wind if, at the time of the take-off or landing:
(i) the pilot is not permitted under subregulation (5) to take off or land downwind; and
(ii) it is practicable to take off or land into the wind.
(3) For paragraphs (2) (d) and (e), the turns must be made:
(a) if CASA has, under subregulation 92 (2), directed that all turns at the aerodrome be made in a particular direction —in accordance with CASA’s directions; or
(b) if paragraph (a) does not apply and visual signals are displayed at the aerodrome indicating a direction to make all turns — in accordance with the visual signals; or
(c) in any other case — to the pilot’s left.
Note Directions under subregulation 92 (2) are published in the AIP.
(4) The rule in paragraph (2) (f) does not apply if a change to the track is necessary to avoid the terrain.
(5) For subparagraph (2) (h) (i), the pilot in command of an aircraft may take off or land downwind at a non-controlled aerodrome if:
(a) the aircraft’s flight manual allows the aircraft to take off or land downwind; and
(b) after considering any other aircraft that are being operated on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome, the pilot believes that it is safe to do so.
(6) An offence against subregulation (1) in relation to any of paragraphs (2) (a) to (g) is an offence of strict liability.
Note The pilot in command of an aircraft must comply with the flight manual, or other equivalent document for the aircraft, as required by regulation 138.
166B Carrying out a straight-in approach
(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft commits an offence if:
(a) the pilot carries out a straight‑in approach to land at a non‑controlled aerodrome; and
(b) the pilot engages in conduct; and
(c) the conduct results in the contravention of a rule set out in subregulation (2).
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
(2) The rules are the following:
(a) before starting the approach, the pilot must determine:
(i) the wind direction at the aerodrome; and
(ii) the runways in use at the aerodrome;
(b) the pilot must give way to any other aircraft flying in the circuit pattern for the aerodrome;
(c) subject to subregulation (3), the pilot must carry out all manoeuvring, to establish the aircraft on final approach, at least 3 miles from the threshold of the runway that the pilot intends to use for landing.
(3) The rule in paragraph (2) (c) does not apply to the pilot if he or she is carrying out the approach:
(a) using an instrument approach procedure; and
(b) in IMC.
(4) An offence against subregulation (1) in relation to paragraph (2) (a) or (b) is an offence of strict liability.
166C Responsibility for broadcasting on VHF radio
(1) If:
(a) an aircraft is operating on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non-controlled aerodrome; and
(b) the aircraft is carrying a serviceable aircraft VHF radio; and
(c) the pilot in command of the aircraft holds a radiotelephone qualification;
the pilot is responsible for making a broadcast on the VHF frequency in use for the aerodrome in accordance with subregulation (2).
(2) The pilot must make a broadcast that includes the following information whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft:
(a) the name of the aerodrome;
(b) the aircraft’s type and call sign;
(c) the position of the aircraft and the pilot’s intentions.
Note 1 See the AIP for the recommended format for broadcasting the information mentioned in this regulation.
Note 2 For the requirement to maintain a listening watch, see regulation 243.
166D Designation of non-controlled aerodromes
(1) For paragraph 98 (5A) (a) of the Act, CASA may issue a legislative instrument that states that a specified non‑controlled aerodrome is a designated non‑controlled aerodrome.
(2) CASA must ensure that details of the designation of an aerodrome under subregulation (1) are published in AIP or NOTAMS.
166E Requirements for operating on or in the vicinity of certified, military, registered or designated non-controlled aerodromes
(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft commits an offence if:
(a) he or she operates the aircraft on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non-controlled aerodrome that is:
(i) a certified aerodrome; or
(ii) a military aerodrome; or
(iii) a registered aerodrome; or
(iv) specified as a designated non-controlled aerodrome in a legislative instrument issued by CASA under regulation 166D; and
(b) he or she is not permitted to do so by subregulation (2), (3) or (4).
Penalty: 25 penalty units.
Note 1 For the definitions of certified aerodrome and registered aerodrome, see the CASR Dictionary.
Note 2 For the definition of military aerodrome, see subregulation 2 (1).
Aircraft with serviceable radio and pilot with radiotelephone qualification
(2) The pilot in command of an aircraft may operate the aircraft on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non-controlled aerodrome mentioned in paragraph (1) (a) if:
(a) the aircraft is carrying a serviceable aircraft VHF radio; and
(b) the pilot holds a radiotelephone qualification.
Flight in VMC during the day and in company
(3) The pilot in command of an aircraft may operate the aircraft on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non-controlled aerodrome mentioned in paragraph (1) (a) if:
(a) either:
(i) the aircraft is not carrying a serviceable aircraft VHF radio; or
(ii) the pilot does not hold a radiotelephone qualification; and
(b) the aircraft is being operated for a flight:
(i) that is in VMC; and
(ii) that is not a night flight; and
(iii) that is undertaken in company with another aircraft; and
(c) the other aircraft is carrying a serviceable aircraft VHF radio; and
(d) the pilot in command of the other aircraft holds a radiotelephone qualification.
Unserviceable radio
(4) The pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying an unserviceable aircraft VHF radio may operate the aircraft on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non-controlled aerodrome mentioned in paragraph (1) (a) if:
(a) either:
(i) the radio became unserviceable during the flight; or
(ii) the purpose of the flight is to take the radio to a place where it can be repaired; and
(b) for an aircraft that is flying in the vicinity of the aerodrome — the pilot ensures that each of the following are switched on:
(i) the aircraft’s landing lights (if any);
(ii) the aircraft’s anti-collision lights (if any);
(iii) the aircraft’s secondary surveillance radar transponder (if any); and
(c) for an aircraft arriving at the aerodrome — the pilot joins the circuit pattern for the aerodrome on the cross‑wind leg of the circuit pattern.
(5) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability
Last edited by LeadSled; 20th Apr 2011 at 06:04.
Thread Starter
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Let me rephrase, after making my initial radio call and after i let him know that i was overhead and would wait for him he stated that he would be done shortly. After each circuit he flew i 'reminded' him that i was still there (so did the two other aircraft that have come in the mean time)
I was in a C172 but the aircraft landing with a tailwind was a duchess, not sure of the operator but it is a regular at bankstown. Don't want to start a hate thread or anything against forign students but he sounded like he didn't have a strong comprienhension of english.
I was in a C172 but the aircraft landing with a tailwind was a duchess, not sure of the operator but it is a regular at bankstown. Don't want to start a hate thread or anything against forign students but he sounded like he didn't have a strong comprienhension of english.
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I wouldn't want to explain that 20mins holding and diversion.
Best bet has already been mentioned, time it to be abeam the threshold as he is just getting airborne then there should be enough time for you to land on the reciprocal assuming both are standard left circuits. Given the duchess v 172 could even go to the extent of low level circuit to keep it quick and ask him to extend downwind if it was really tight.
Best bet has already been mentioned, time it to be abeam the threshold as he is just getting airborne then there should be enough time for you to land on the reciprocal assuming both are standard left circuits. Given the duchess v 172 could even go to the extent of low level circuit to keep it quick and ask him to extend downwind if it was really tight.
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Fight or flight
LeadSled, thanks for the lesson in airlaw. 
NIK320, exactly. Just land the damn aeroplane. With two in the circuit, you can pretty much do what you like with plenty of separation.
The old instructor in me still thinks that the student made atleast one good decision. Not completely happy with the situation so he bugged out. I always briefed my not so strong students to get out of there if they couldn't handle it. This guy cleary couldn't sort it out.
NIK320, exactly. Just land the damn aeroplane. With two in the circuit, you can pretty much do what you like with plenty of separation.
The old instructor in me still thinks that the student made atleast one good decision. Not completely happy with the situation so he bugged out. I always briefed my not so strong students to get out of there if they couldn't handle it. This guy cleary couldn't sort it out.
Don't want to start a hate thread or anything against forign students but he sounded like he didn't have a strong comprienhension of english.
In all seriousness, I am a firm believer in the "name and shame" principle...
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Funny^^
who is giving advice about timing his circuit and doing a circuit low level head on into him?? Are you nuts??
seriously -
tell him once ok
tell him twice it's a phone call to the aircraft operator
tell him 3 times letter to Casa
have to divert - name and shame!!
Seriously though what did the other aircraft do?
What on earth is the point of practicing 15 kt tailwinds? Unless your in png with "rocks in your socks" just use the other direction practice xwinds fair enough but any downwind = headwind if you go the other way - who teaches this ****e...
who is giving advice about timing his circuit and doing a circuit low level head on into him?? Are you nuts??
seriously -
tell him once ok
tell him twice it's a phone call to the aircraft operator
tell him 3 times letter to Casa
have to divert - name and shame!!
Seriously though what did the other aircraft do?
What on earth is the point of practicing 15 kt tailwinds? Unless your in png with "rocks in your socks" just use the other direction practice xwinds fair enough but any downwind = headwind if you go the other way - who teaches this ****e...
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Originally Posted by Wallsofchina
Wouldn't mind a dollar for every RPT flight that pushes in and lands downwind
Just checked my PA28R POH - takeoff distance charts show a tailwind component of up to 5 knots. A maximum isn't stated.
I just realised that climb angle and distance to 50 ft are going to be compromised - maybe more of an issue than runway length?
I just realised that climb angle and distance to 50 ft are going to be compromised - maybe more of an issue than runway length?
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If you don't have performance figures for it then you become the test pilot...
I have worked for operators who will not fly when the temp gets over 38 because the book doesn't have peromance figures for any higher (fine by me I prefer the aircon)
Which basically means when the **** hits the fan you better have a bloody good reason for being there. The problem then comes back to, as I said before, if you try land with 15kt tail wind and kill someone and they start looking to you asking why? Something better than "I cbf flying a circuit" had better come out of your mouth - pretty simple concept. Any tailwind on any runway = headwind on the recipricol runway it's that easy.
It I also the reason why max xwind is now written as a "demonstrated max" you can "demonstrate" something higher than the book figure - you just better have a bloody good reason why...
Cheers
I have worked for operators who will not fly when the temp gets over 38 because the book doesn't have peromance figures for any higher (fine by me I prefer the aircon)
Which basically means when the **** hits the fan you better have a bloody good reason for being there. The problem then comes back to, as I said before, if you try land with 15kt tail wind and kill someone and they start looking to you asking why? Something better than "I cbf flying a circuit" had better come out of your mouth - pretty simple concept. Any tailwind on any runway = headwind on the recipricol runway it's that easy.
It I also the reason why max xwind is now written as a "demonstrated max" you can "demonstrate" something higher than the book figure - you just better have a bloody good reason why...
Cheers
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who is giving advice about timing his circuit and doing a circuit low level head on into him?? Are you nuts??
The only time its head on is while your on the runway and he turns final. Simple solution to that is fly a low level and make it a quick circuit or ask him to extend downwind. Then your taxiing away from the runway while he turns final.
At no point are the 2 aircraft flying head on
Last edited by NIK320; 19th Apr 2011 at 21:31.
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I have worked for operators who will not fly when the temp gets over 38 because the book doesn't have peromance figures for any higher (fine by me I prefer the aircon)
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Xcel,
Some good input, but !
If a maximum crosswind limit applies to the aircraft, it will be in Sect 2, Limitations, of the AFM.
It is NOT the trend now to express Crosswind Limits as Demonstrated Crosswind.
For structural or handling reasons some GA aircraft have such limitations in the AFM,
e.g. PA34, 12 Kts, structural limit because the main landing gear is attached to the main spar.
DEMONSTRATED CROSSWIND
All Cessna AFM's list definitions in section 1 of the AFM. Cessna defines Demonstrated Crosswind as follows:
Demonstrated Crosswind Velocity is the velocity of the crosswind component for which adequate control
of the airplane during take off and landing was actually demonstrated during certification tests. The value shown is not considered limiting.
FAR 23 and 25 have different criteria and transport category aircraft will have a maximum crosswind limit determined by test flying to establish that limit.
If a GA aircraft does not have a structural or handling limit imposed by the manufacturer it will have a "Demonstrated" crosswind that merely reflects
the crosswind that existed on the day of certification.
It simply means that the manufacturer, under the certification rules, did not need to establish a limit,
but merely had to demonstrate adequate control on the day of certification in the prevailing conditions.
I do not advocate exceeding the demonstrated crosswind in such aircraft, in fact some pilots experience difficulty with 10 kts xw, some can handle 15 kts,
and if 20 kts, as listed for the C208, a lot of experience and correct technique would be needed.
In fact the Shrike (AC50) lists a demonstrated crosswind of 25 kts, certainly not for the inexperienced or faint hearted.
MF
Some good input, but !
If a maximum crosswind limit applies to the aircraft, it will be in Sect 2, Limitations, of the AFM.
It is NOT the trend now to express Crosswind Limits as Demonstrated Crosswind.
For structural or handling reasons some GA aircraft have such limitations in the AFM,
e.g. PA34, 12 Kts, structural limit because the main landing gear is attached to the main spar.
DEMONSTRATED CROSSWIND
All Cessna AFM's list definitions in section 1 of the AFM. Cessna defines Demonstrated Crosswind as follows:
Demonstrated Crosswind Velocity is the velocity of the crosswind component for which adequate control
of the airplane during take off and landing was actually demonstrated during certification tests. The value shown is not considered limiting.
FAR 23 and 25 have different criteria and transport category aircraft will have a maximum crosswind limit determined by test flying to establish that limit.
If a GA aircraft does not have a structural or handling limit imposed by the manufacturer it will have a "Demonstrated" crosswind that merely reflects
the crosswind that existed on the day of certification.
It simply means that the manufacturer, under the certification rules, did not need to establish a limit,
but merely had to demonstrate adequate control on the day of certification in the prevailing conditions.
I do not advocate exceeding the demonstrated crosswind in such aircraft, in fact some pilots experience difficulty with 10 kts xw, some can handle 15 kts,
and if 20 kts, as listed for the C208, a lot of experience and correct technique would be needed.
In fact the Shrike (AC50) lists a demonstrated crosswind of 25 kts, certainly not for the inexperienced or faint hearted.
MF
Originally Posted by Nik320
Best bet has already been mentioned, time it to be abeam the threshold as he is just getting airborne then there should be enough time for you to land on the reciprocal assuming both are standard left circuits. Given the duchess v 172 could even go to the extent of low level circuit to keep it quick and ask him to extend downwind if it was really tight.
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Howard Hughes - nope was ISA +22 the chart stopped (or somewhere around there - been few years) for the grob so china southern out at merriden had many a summer day with cancelled flying whilst I was there.
Mainframe - exactly my point... And yes we are talking about ga aircraft here right? But then again we are talking about tailwind and not xwind now...
Bottom line is the guy is a douche tell him to park up and wait for you to land not the other way round if he wants to do dumb ****. Their are limits and rules and frankly he was operating outside of both - goodluck to him. Genuine mistakes happen with wind but this doesn't sound like one of them...
Mainframe - exactly my point... And yes we are talking about ga aircraft here right? But then again we are talking about tailwind and not xwind now...
Bottom line is the guy is a douche tell him to park up and wait for you to land not the other way round if he wants to do dumb ****. Their are limits and rules and frankly he was operating outside of both - goodluck to him. Genuine mistakes happen with wind but this doesn't sound like one of them...
Mainframe ( and Sunfish),
Many FAR 25 aircraft (meaning all but one of the one's I have flown, and that one was certified to SFAR 422b, which morphed into FAR 25) have the crosswind for manual flight expressed as maximum demonstrated crosswind, with hard limits for autolands.
Re. the Duchess, have a look in "limitations" for the downwind limit. It is probably 5 kts.
Clearly, operating in a tailwind over the limit is a breach of CAR 138, as well as the matter of CAR 166.
One thing that is cropping up in more and more CASA publications is the emphasis on compliance with CAR 138, which means compliance with the AFM/POH in its entirety, a message lost on many FOIs, who still feel they are at liberty to demand changes to Operations manuals that contradict the AFM.
Tootle pip!!
PPbash,
Maybe you do know the air law, but it is clear that many do not or do know and ignore it.
Circuit joining procedure is almost as old as aviation, and the basic rules have changed very little over the years, what does it say about many "modern" pilots that Australia now needs something as longwinded as the present CAR 166, which is about twice as long as the previous, and, in the "good old days" hardly existed as a regulation at all.
Many FAR 25 aircraft (meaning all but one of the one's I have flown, and that one was certified to SFAR 422b, which morphed into FAR 25) have the crosswind for manual flight expressed as maximum demonstrated crosswind, with hard limits for autolands.
Re. the Duchess, have a look in "limitations" for the downwind limit. It is probably 5 kts.
Clearly, operating in a tailwind over the limit is a breach of CAR 138, as well as the matter of CAR 166.
One thing that is cropping up in more and more CASA publications is the emphasis on compliance with CAR 138, which means compliance with the AFM/POH in its entirety, a message lost on many FOIs, who still feel they are at liberty to demand changes to Operations manuals that contradict the AFM.
Tootle pip!!
PPbash,
Maybe you do know the air law, but it is clear that many do not or do know and ignore it.
Circuit joining procedure is almost as old as aviation, and the basic rules have changed very little over the years, what does it say about many "modern" pilots that Australia now needs something as longwinded as the present CAR 166, which is about twice as long as the previous, and, in the "good old days" hardly existed as a regulation at all.
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Circuit joining procedure is almost as old as aviation, and the basic rules have changed very little over the years, what does it say about many "modern" pilots that Australia now needs something as longwinded as the present CAR 166, which is about twice as long as the previous, and, in the "good old days" hardly existed as a regulation at all.
I never needed a massive pile of CAR's to teach me how circuits should work...its not that complicated.
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I'll always offer to work around the RPT flights, but do get my nose out of joint a bit when they act as if it's their right to have right of way.