RFDS and the PC-12....
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Real scenario:
Depart point A with full medical gear and crew (including Doctor). Takeoff at MTOW and fly 640nm to point B (2.9 hrs block to block). Pick up two patients and depart for point C. Fly 414nm (1.8 hrs block to block) at FL130 (sea level cabin required) to first available fuel at point C. Takeoff at MTOW with the two patients and fly at FL130 for 724nm to point D (3.1 hrs block to block).
Yes, that's a total of 7.8 hrs and 1,778nm with a significant load and operational considerations. This is one of the areas where the PC12 truly shines in a part of the country where we have some of the longest turboprop aeromedical routes in the world.
Food for thought.
Depart point A with full medical gear and crew (including Doctor). Takeoff at MTOW and fly 640nm to point B (2.9 hrs block to block). Pick up two patients and depart for point C. Fly 414nm (1.8 hrs block to block) at FL130 (sea level cabin required) to first available fuel at point C. Takeoff at MTOW with the two patients and fly at FL130 for 724nm to point D (3.1 hrs block to block).
Yes, that's a total of 7.8 hrs and 1,778nm with a significant load and operational considerations. This is one of the areas where the PC12 truly shines in a part of the country where we have some of the longest turboprop aeromedical routes in the world.
Food for thought.
Normal diff is 5.2psi from memory. Think max is 5.75psi.
I have flown both and they both have their positives and negatives. However for range vs payload, the PC-12 sh*ts all over the B200.
For pure hands on flying, the B200 handles better than the PC-12 (there Jamair, you happy?).
Dixon, the PC-12 also craps all over the B200 for field performance. In a light PC-12, about a 10kt headwind, 30 degree's OAT, I've landed and pulled up the aircraft in as little as 3-400m's. Airborne again in around the same.
morno
I have flown both and they both have their positives and negatives. However for range vs payload, the PC-12 sh*ts all over the B200.
For pure hands on flying, the B200 handles better than the PC-12 (there Jamair, you happy?).
Dixon, the PC-12 also craps all over the B200 for field performance. In a light PC-12, about a 10kt headwind, 30 degree's OAT, I've landed and pulled up the aircraft in as little as 3-400m's. Airborne again in around the same.
morno
)
Sprucegoose
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I've landed and pulled up the aircraft in as little as 3-400m's.
....plus you get the chance to practice turn-backs and high speed cloud-breaks.
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In my humble opinion under normal circumstances these two aircraft should not be compared only for the manufacturers chasing sales in each others market.
The KingAir beyond any argument provides the added safety of two engines and stronger performance at altitude;
The PC-12 does provide advantages in certain areas such as;
Cabin size;
Two access doors (you don't have to squeaze by the patient etc;
Better field porformance;
Range Vs Payload.
For me it comes down to risk management. If you do a lot of night flying in IMC carrying the public, well what would you rather be flying on as a patient? As for never being out of gliding range of an emergency lit aerodrome, even if you are within range, you still have to get someone out to light em up and shoot the perfect approach. What if they don't answer the phone or radio??? Thats a worry hey! What if being at such an altitude is operationally unacceptable due to a ground level cabin requirement? I have over 10 years on the B200 in aeromedical industry and to this day I am still impressed by what it can do and the sense of safety you have when flying at night in remote areas.
I am also aware the PC-12 offers some advantages also.
The KingAir beyond any argument provides the added safety of two engines and stronger performance at altitude;
The PC-12 does provide advantages in certain areas such as;
Cabin size;
Two access doors (you don't have to squeaze by the patient etc;
Better field porformance;
Range Vs Payload.
For me it comes down to risk management. If you do a lot of night flying in IMC carrying the public, well what would you rather be flying on as a patient? As for never being out of gliding range of an emergency lit aerodrome, even if you are within range, you still have to get someone out to light em up and shoot the perfect approach. What if they don't answer the phone or radio??? Thats a worry hey! What if being at such an altitude is operationally unacceptable due to a ground level cabin requirement? I have over 10 years on the B200 in aeromedical industry and to this day I am still impressed by what it can do and the sense of safety you have when flying at night in remote areas.
I am also aware the PC-12 offers some advantages also.
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Mornos...... coming to grips with the nintendo are we?
PC12 max landing flap x-wind limit - 15kt (not demonstrated, MAX)
B200 DEMONSTRATED (not MAX) x-wind limit with landing flap - 25kt.
From the RFDS website, ALA need to be 1000m, does not differentiate between a/c types.
FWIW, a Citation sh!ts over both of them for range v payload (gidday Gaunty!). A b@stard to load stretchers into but
.
Kingair has passed 6,000 units in service over what, 40 years? PC12 has 1,000 over 15 years. Not really apples with apples. The KingBear flies nicer; WGAS what happens on the other side of the curtain
.
PC12 max landing flap x-wind limit - 15kt (not demonstrated, MAX)
B200 DEMONSTRATED (not MAX) x-wind limit with landing flap - 25kt.
From the RFDS website, ALA need to be 1000m, does not differentiate between a/c types.
FWIW, a Citation sh!ts over both of them for range v payload (gidday Gaunty!). A b@stard to load stretchers into but
.Kingair has passed 6,000 units in service over what, 40 years? PC12 has 1,000 over 15 years. Not really apples with apples. The KingBear flies nicer; WGAS what happens on the other side of the curtain
.
......gaud this thread still running? I would have thought the Mods would have had enuf by now
I was having a cuppa one day a few years ago with an AD pilot awaiting his med team to come back to En & I asked what's the proc on a non precision App with the ONLY donk out of action if height was up yr sleeve. He proceeded to freighter the crap out of me with his rendition of how to go about this most dangerous maneuver. Me takes me hat off to those that take that level of risk day in day out
Their the real hero pilots not us soft c*cks who fly with redundancy:-
I'm with 'SN'. I did 10 yrs & over 4K hrs on the old Beech. It was like slipping on an old pair of boots where if one sole fell off I had another to limp home on
Keep it up boys it's amusing reading
Wmk2
I was having a cuppa one day a few years ago with an AD pilot awaiting his med team to come back to En & I asked what's the proc on a non precision App with the ONLY donk out of action if height was up yr sleeve. He proceeded to freighter the crap out of me with his rendition of how to go about this most dangerous maneuver. Me takes me hat off to those that take that level of risk day in day out
Their the real hero pilots not us soft c*cks who fly with redundancy:-I'm with 'SN'. I did 10 yrs & over 4K hrs on the old Beech. It was like slipping on an old pair of boots where if one sole fell off I had another to limp home on
Keep it up boys it's amusing reading
Wmk2
Performance comparison
King Air 200 and 350 are going in and out of Toowoomba at present.
Elevation about 2,000 ft.
There is a notam on works in progress limiting the runways to less than 700m last time I checked. Even the grass cross runway has been used.
So both the PC12 and the King Air's have enough performance.
King Air 200 and 350 are going in and out of Toowoomba at present.
Elevation about 2,000 ft.
There is a notam on works in progress limiting the runways to less than 700m last time I checked. Even the grass cross runway has been used.
So both the PC12 and the King Air's have enough performance.
Sprucegoose
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King Air 200 and 350 are going in and out of Toowoomba at present.
Elevation about 2,000 ft.
Elevation about 2,000 ft.
Hmm, sitting here with the B350 book in front of me, not this little black duck!
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Sorry, have to correct a couple of things.
Jamair, sorry to rain on your parade but to quote straight out of the PC12 flight manual it expressly states the opposite to what you say. The crosswind is: "Maximum Demonstrated Crosswind for Take off and Landing (not a limitation)" - 15kts with flap 40 progressively increasing to 30kts with flap 0. Althought I will have to say that all aircraft that I have flown (including the PC12) that have a rudder/aileron interconnect make crosswinds a little less enjoyable as you are fighting the interconnect and the wind to achieve the result you want.
Morno, not sure if you got 5.2 diff from a pre Series 9 but series 9&10 classics have a max diff of 5.75 continuous. A dead band exists between 5.75 and 6.35 where the system relief valve opens. A red radial line on the guage at 6.5 psid indicates the maximum permissible cabin pressure and is the maximum switching point set for the cabin pressure diff warning switch. For the /47E (NG) cabin pressurisation control is automatic and it is also regulated to 5.75 continuous. An Amber caution is triggered at 6.0psi and a red warning is triggered at 6.35psi.
Jamair, sorry to rain on your parade but to quote straight out of the PC12 flight manual it expressly states the opposite to what you say. The crosswind is: "Maximum Demonstrated Crosswind for Take off and Landing (not a limitation)" - 15kts with flap 40 progressively increasing to 30kts with flap 0. Althought I will have to say that all aircraft that I have flown (including the PC12) that have a rudder/aileron interconnect make crosswinds a little less enjoyable as you are fighting the interconnect and the wind to achieve the result you want.
Morno, not sure if you got 5.2 diff from a pre Series 9 but series 9&10 classics have a max diff of 5.75 continuous. A dead band exists between 5.75 and 6.35 where the system relief valve opens. A red radial line on the guage at 6.5 psid indicates the maximum permissible cabin pressure and is the maximum switching point set for the cabin pressure diff warning switch. For the /47E (NG) cabin pressurisation control is automatic and it is also regulated to 5.75 continuous. An Amber caution is triggered at 6.0psi and a red warning is triggered at 6.35psi.
King Air 200 and 350 are going in and out of Toowoomba at present.
Elevation about 2,000 ft.
There is a notam on works in progress limiting the runways to less than 700m last time I checked. Even the grass cross runway has been used.
So both the PC12 and the King Air's have enough performance.
Elevation about 2,000 ft.
There is a notam on works in progress limiting the runways to less than 700m last time I checked. Even the grass cross runway has been used.
So both the PC12 and the King Air's have enough performance.
I have landed on the grass at Toowoomba exactly ONCE, in dozens of YTWB landings.
First flight after achieving Unrestricted PPL - Archerfield to Toowoomba in a PA28 - didn't like the look of the cross-wind on the bitumen so put it on the grass - thought I was gonna go through the fence at the far end - never again!
Dr
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thought I was gonna go through the fence at the far end
Last edited by frigatebird; 23rd Apr 2011 at 22:41. Reason: took the u out of vigourously
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NOMAD:
. yep, yer right, I was mistaken; it is demonstrated. Yer also correct that at or above the x-wind limit the thing handles like a pig. I will add that reducing the flap increases the landing distance A LOT - a nil-flap landing means an 80% increase in LDR 
at 118kt. Nullifies the suggested advantages somewhat.
I would further suggest that as the majority of Oz PC12 are in RFDS service, their failure rate would be improved by the very high standards of maintenance in that organisation, vs the older Kingairs in the general GA population whose maintenance standards may not be quite as rigorous.
FTDK, in the famous words of that J* captain - 'suck it up princess!' Used to fly circuits on the TWB cross-strip in DDACs A36 (WMA) regularly. The Eastland Twotters used it routinely on their TWB-BN RPT.
Sorry, have to correct a couple of things
. I will add that reducing the flap increases the landing distance A LOT - a nil-flap landing means an 80% increase in LDR at 118kt. Nullifies the suggested advantages somewhat.I would further suggest that as the majority of Oz PC12 are in RFDS service, their failure rate would be improved by the very high standards of maintenance in that organisation, vs the older Kingairs in the general GA population whose maintenance standards may not be quite as rigorous.
FTDK, in the famous words of that J* captain - 'suck it up princess!'
Used to fly circuits on the TWB cross-strip in DDACs A36 (WMA) regularly. The Eastland Twotters used it routinely on their TWB-BN RPT.
I should point out that I haven't seen the King Air's out of TWB, just heard their radio calls on Centre. One had 8 pob.
The distance available is less than 700m so you have to be impressed.
Why go for a SE PC12 when the King Air's can handle that.
The distance available is less than 700m so you have to be impressed.
Why go for a SE PC12 when the King Air's can handle that.