RFDS and the PC-12....
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I was simply illustrating a point, not getting into the endless debate about certification standards blah blah blah.
FWIW, the thing flys off at 95 and has a VXSE of 115 (or a F1 VXSE of 105), the intervening 10 or 20kt takes about 3 nonoseconds to achieve, so in practical terms if it gets off the ground it will fly. Yep, you could have an engine or systems failure at below flying speed but above stopping speed, but on a typical 1000m rwy you CAN slow enough to make a reasonably soft arrival at the far end of the rwy. That is why you brief the takeoff and choose your course of action before applying the power.
I still fly both PC12 and B200 from time to time, and both have strengths & weaknesses. They also have (surprisingly) similar running costs, so that issue really is not an issue at all.
FWIW, the thing flys off at 95 and has a VXSE of 115 (or a F1 VXSE of 105), the intervening 10 or 20kt takes about 3 nonoseconds to achieve, so in practical terms if it gets off the ground it will fly. Yep, you could have an engine or systems failure at below flying speed but above stopping speed, but on a typical 1000m rwy you CAN slow enough to make a reasonably soft arrival at the far end of the rwy. That is why you brief the takeoff and choose your course of action before applying the power.
I still fly both PC12 and B200 from time to time, and both have strengths & weaknesses. They also have (surprisingly) similar running costs, so that issue really is not an issue at all.
'A69" that's a loooooooooong bow yr drawing there but I hear you. Some of the RFDS work is contractual so it matters none what airframe type is used there's still x amount of airframes allowed in that contract for the bucks avail. Everything is predicated on 4 airframes.Tech Crew, maint, general staff & of course the resource which is often not enough, the Ambo's. Having 5 PC airframes as they would cost the same as 4 B200's (which I doubt very much) wouldn't mean all where avail at any one time.
I know the Vic contract never allowed for SE planes when it finally was drafted up, one reason early in the peace was that the Ambo's union I believe wouldn't allow their members to fly in SE planes, fair call I reckon:-)
Remember in Vic AAV use ambo's (an extension of the road guys/gals) where as I think all other places use employed RFDS staff,medical wise.
'C Stally' yep the old broken record has been dragged out again
as it's bin a little while since we had this debate & I thought I might not be able to 'spin-up' the old song but like the sound of a "twin" I'm on song
Again at the end of the day as I have said a zillion times b4 it's about choice, I simply wouldn't fly in a SE plane at night in IMC, I value my own life just a tad more than those who do take that risk:-)
10 yrs for me & EVERY time I took off I thought ....ahhhhhhh there's nothing sweeter than a twin engined machine out of sync
I hope we only ever go back & forth here using just words about 'what if ' & not "I told ya so"!
Wmk2
I know the Vic contract never allowed for SE planes when it finally was drafted up, one reason early in the peace was that the Ambo's union I believe wouldn't allow their members to fly in SE planes, fair call I reckon:-)
Remember in Vic AAV use ambo's (an extension of the road guys/gals) where as I think all other places use employed RFDS staff,medical wise.
'C Stally' yep the old broken record has been dragged out again
as it's bin a little while since we had this debate & I thought I might not be able to 'spin-up' the old song but like the sound of a "twin" I'm on songAgain at the end of the day as I have said a zillion times b4 it's about choice, I simply wouldn't fly in a SE plane at night in IMC, I value my own life just a tad more than those who do take that risk:-)
10 yrs for me & EVERY time I took off I thought ....ahhhhhhh there's nothing sweeter than a twin engined machine out of sync
I hope we only ever go back & forth here using just words about 'what if ' & not "I told ya so"!
Wmk2
That's why I liked the good old Heron!
Nothing like the thought of number cruncher sitting in his ergonomic chair, at his nice ergonomic work station in his air conditioned office running the eye over operating costs of a twin engine verses a single engine aeroplane, thinking about the bottom line and how it could add dollars to his performance bonus!!
Nothing like the thought of number cruncher sitting in his ergonomic chair, at his nice ergonomic work station in his air conditioned office running the eye over operating costs of a twin engine verses a single engine aeroplane, thinking about the bottom line and how it could add dollars to his performance bonus!!
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is the most sensible thing I have heard in this debate
Don't expect it all the time though!Hey Wally....ya wanna look in my logbook under NIGHT and IF for the last few months
.Yeah yeah....I do keep it to a limit as best I can.
J
Back to PC12vB200
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The B200 is not a transport category aircraft.
Ok, so let's all put our fingers up and count together, now, how many crashes involving B200 aircraft in the RFDS, and how many involving the PC-12.
!) B200 ..... er 1 that I know of
2) PC-12 ... er how many was that again??
!) B200 ..... er 1 that I know of
2) PC-12 ... er how many was that again??
While that may be true, it proves very little.
PS or are you saying a Drover was safer that a King Air coz it had more engines?
Thread Starter
Hey Arnold,
That takes me back to the story of the guy who gets a look 'up front' in a
'Super Connie' whilst mid - Atlantic, and for 'something to say' - says to the skipper,
"What do you consider is the adequate number of engines to have for these long distance over ocean flights"?
The skipper very 'knowingly' replies,
"When my Number 1 here taps me on the shoulder and says, 'Skip. Number 16 is running a bit 'hot'.!
And I reply, "Oh!.... Which side..??"
I really is with ya Wal, - just found this article 'interesting'....
Cheers
That takes me back to the story of the guy who gets a look 'up front' in a
'Super Connie' whilst mid - Atlantic, and for 'something to say' - says to the skipper,
"What do you consider is the adequate number of engines to have for these long distance over ocean flights"?
The skipper very 'knowingly' replies,
"When my Number 1 here taps me on the shoulder and says, 'Skip. Number 16 is running a bit 'hot'.!
And I reply, "Oh!.... Which side..??"
I really is with ya Wal, - just found this article 'interesting'....
Cheers
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 15th Apr 2011 at 14:02.
Thread Starter
TKS 'HH'...........
My point.... Exactly.....
And...Didn't they do oil changes' 'on-the-run'..??
I can just imagine that on a cold and dark night with CB's all around.......
My point.... Exactly.....
And...Didn't they do oil changes' 'on-the-run'..??
I can just imagine that on a cold and dark night with CB's all around.......
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Arnold you are easily led astray because the prang you alluded to had two perfectly operating engines up until the moment they hit the ground.
You can only compare failure vs failure stats. Any other type is irrelevant.
You can only compare failure vs failure stats. Any other type is irrelevant.
Last edited by Jabawocky; 16th Apr 2011 at 09:33. Reason: correcting iphone spelling
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Aircraft Running Costs.
I still fly both PC12 and B200 from time to time, and both have strengths & weaknesses. They also have (surprisingly) similar running costs, so that issue really is not an issue at all.
Jamair, do you have any rough numbers for each aircraft with regards to:
New a/c purchase price:
Engine replacement/overhaul price per engine:
Propeller TBO and replacement/overhaul Price.
Average hours/cost per 100hrly inspection:
Fuel Burn at cruise speed:
I'd have thought with the replacement cost of 2 engines, even if they are slightly smaller and thus cheaper than the larger PC12 Engine it would make quite an impact on the running costs. Coupled with the added hours required to do an inspection on a second engine and more complex fuel system it would make 100hrlys somewhat more costly and time consuming. Time is money afterall, especially when its costing around $100 an hour for a LAME these days. Less time on the ground = more productive flying. I personally have flown neither aircraft but pilots who have tell me the Kingair is about 10% faster roughly, obviously bringing its price-per-mile cost back slightly.
It just seems to me that surely there must have been more than just a slight difference between running costs of each aircraft for the RFDS to switch so many of its fleet to the PC12.
Moderator
HH. What is the SE rate of climb for that thing? 
PC12:
Max cruise speed: 280 ktas (322 mph) 519 km/hr TAS
Max range (3 Pax, 30,000 ft, NBAA IFR reserve) 1,560 nm / 1,795 sm 2,889 km
Max operating altitude 30,000 ft 9,144 m
Takeoff distance over 50 ft obstacle 2,650 ft 808 m
Rate of climb (MTOW) 1,920 ft / min 585 m / min
B200:
Max cruise speed: 289 ktas
Max range 1887 nm
Rate of climb (MTOW) 2,450 ft / min
The PC12 has a better SE rate of climb than the B200.
PC12:
Max cruise speed: 280 ktas (322 mph) 519 km/hr TAS
Max range (3 Pax, 30,000 ft, NBAA IFR reserve) 1,560 nm / 1,795 sm 2,889 km
Max operating altitude 30,000 ft 9,144 m
Takeoff distance over 50 ft obstacle 2,650 ft 808 m
Rate of climb (MTOW) 1,920 ft / min 585 m / min
B200:
Max cruise speed: 289 ktas
Max range 1887 nm
Rate of climb (MTOW) 2,450 ft / min
The PC12 has a better SE rate of climb than the B200.
Seasonally Adjusted
I know the Vic contract never allowed for SE planes when it finally was drafted up, one reason early in the peace was that the Ambo's union I believe wouldn't allow their members to fly in SE planes, fair call I reckon
Here we go again...
The PC-12 has now been operated in Aus for more than 15 years, the fleet is of a very respectable size, and it flies a very large number of hours each year.
If the afore-mentioned incident in WA is the worst thing that has happened in that time, that's a pretty good record.
(An incident that would certainly get your attention, but hardly the stuff of nightmares)
Now, how many King Air accidents have there been in the same time frame (15 years+)?
Oh, and the ambo's in SA (SAAS) routinely fly in RFDS PC-12's. I guess they're not as soft as their VIC counterparts (or perhaps not as poorly informed?)
The PC-12 has now been operated in Aus for more than 15 years, the fleet is of a very respectable size, and it flies a very large number of hours each year.
If the afore-mentioned incident in WA is the worst thing that has happened in that time, that's a pretty good record.
(An incident that would certainly get your attention, but hardly the stuff of nightmares)
Now, how many King Air accidents have there been in the same time frame (15 years+)?
Oh, and the ambo's in SA (SAAS) routinely fly in RFDS PC-12's. I guess they're not as soft as their VIC counterparts (or perhaps not as poorly informed?)
Vic Ambulance is quite well informed, thanks.
These circular arguments are pointless; different folk have different opinions and that is fine. Those firmly in one camp or t'other are unlikely to be swayed.
FWIW, there have been some B200 engine failures in the past several years, none of which made headlines because the crew used the other engine to fly to a suitable destination and land without incident. That option does not exist for SE aircraft. At best, they can hope to glide to a survivable arrival.
Apart from the well-know WA PC12 incident, there have been at least two others - an engine failure at TO at DN (PC12), a chip detect and turnback in SA which was found to be a shagged engine (PC12), and four C208 engine failures with successful outcomes in very lucky circumstances.
Its all good until the luck runs out. As Wally said:
These circular arguments are pointless; different folk have different opinions and that is fine. Those firmly in one camp or t'other are unlikely to be swayed.
FWIW, there have been some B200 engine failures in the past several years, none of which made headlines because the crew used the other engine to fly to a suitable destination and land without incident. That option does not exist for SE aircraft. At best, they can hope to glide to a survivable arrival.
Apart from the well-know WA PC12 incident, there have been at least two others - an engine failure at TO at DN (PC12), a chip detect and turnback in SA which was found to be a shagged engine (PC12), and four C208 engine failures with successful outcomes in very lucky circumstances.
Its all good until the luck runs out. As Wally said:
I hope we only ever go back & forth here using just words about 'what if ' & not "I told ya so"!