NDB Approaches
Eidolon
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,244
Likes: 62
From: Some hole
Originally Posted by ForkTailedDrKiller
Not sure I understand the question but - how about Townsville down to Bowen for the GPS RNAV and back to TL for the ILS ??
CAO 40.2.1 says the holder may act as pilot in command or co-pilot of an aircraft being flown under the I.F.R. only if each navigation aid or procedure that is used to navigate the aircraft during the flight has been endorsed in his or her personal log book.
General instrument flight and the use of at least the NDB or the VOR as a navigation and approach aid also needs to be tested. So some enroute VOR tracking should be included (item 23 on the test form) to cover the VOR as a navigation aid. This could be easily covered on that route with a Bowen 2 SID where you are required to intercept the outbound track by 20 or 30 DME TL depending on the runway in use on the day.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
From: The cloud
Even on steam driven gear won't your rmi show flags when the ndb drops out and point 090/270?
Agree on the only requirement being to listen below lsalt or passing the iaf...
Even for the tracking After reaching topd wouldn't you be tracking on gps?
You could of even been tracking dr... Nothing stopping you flying approaches ifr in vmc...
Had a few renewals where I have been told to "turn off that god aweful noise" one of those times being a Cp check (yes it was 8/8's bluesky) so if your mate is telling the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth feel he might of been screwed a little...
Agree on the only requirement being to listen below lsalt or passing the iaf...
Even for the tracking After reaching topd wouldn't you be tracking on gps?
You could of even been tracking dr... Nothing stopping you flying approaches ifr in vmc...
Had a few renewals where I have been told to "turn off that god aweful noise" one of those times being a Cp check (yes it was 8/8's bluesky) so if your mate is telling the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth feel he might of been screwed a little...
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 4
From: Qld troppo
Locations with only an NDB approach:
Bromelton, QLD
Camooweal, QLD
Georgetown, QLD
Gibb River, WA
Jervois, NT
Bromelton, QLD
Camooweal, QLD
Georgetown, QLD
Gibb River, WA
Jervois, NT
Bromelton - nowhere to land there!
Camooweal - landing is currently restricted to RFDS only. Not a problem cause I can't imagine anyone really wants to go there anyway!
Georgetown - OK, you got me. Not registered or certified so no GPS RNAV approach, but I have landed there a few times so I guess someone may want to go there occassionally.
Gibb River - I think the only reason that there is an NDB there is that it is too remote to go there an pull it out!
Jervois - Not registered or certified so no GPS RNAV approach. NDB is historical only! Like Gibb River, maybe the only reason there is an airstrip there was to service the NDB.
I wonder what % of Oz pilots can get through their entire careers without the need to ever go to these places, let alone fly an approach in IMC?
Dr
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 797
Likes: 3
From: Enroute from Dagobah to Tatooine...!
There's plenty of places that have just one aid (NDB) plus RNAV. Sure, if you go there in IMC you will probably pick the RNAV approach to fly before the NDB, but try going out to some of these places and see what it would be like legally meeting requirements if the NDBs were removed and your delightful machine of choice is not TSO146! On top of that, what about non-IRS equipped IFR en-route position fixing requirements? On top of that, I'm sure I'm not the only one to have had GPS do funny things at inappropriate times. Always nice to have a ground based aid to revert to.
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 825
Likes: 7
From: Sydney Australia
Gibb River - I think the only reason that there is an NDB there is that it is too remote to go there an pull it out!
Jervois - Not registered or certified so no GPS RNAV approach. NDB is historical only! Like Gibb River, maybe the only reason there is an airstrip there was to service the NDB.
Last edited by bentleg; 11th March 2011 at 08:47.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
From: Permanently lost
I think Jervois was originally installed to service a mine out that way. I doubt anyone has done an approach out there since 2006 when one of our chaps did his MECIR renewal and did the NDB part out there. He needed a bit of time in the aircraft which was why I suggested Jervois. Don't think the CP/ATO was too happy with the time it took to get there from Alice Springs. 
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
From: S37.54 E145.11
bentleg:
You're half right, I think. The GIB NDB was originally installed to service the navigation needs of DC3s involved in the Air Beef Scheme in the late 1940s, early 50s, before the Gibb River Rd was constructed.
Glenroy station at the time was one of the largest abatoirs in the region (if not Australia) and DC3s and Bristol Freighters used to land to uplift beef products to Wyndham port for onwards shipping to the southern states and internationally. The Gibb NDB was an enroute aid to facilitate navigation between Glenroy and Wyndam. Talking to some of the older pilots involved in the Air Beef Scheme, my impression was that there were numerous flight each day into/out of Glenroy Station at the time.
Gibb River was more than likely put in as a waypoint between Derby and Wyndham.
Glenroy station at the time was one of the largest abatoirs in the region (if not Australia) and DC3s and Bristol Freighters used to land to uplift beef products to Wyndham port for onwards shipping to the southern states and internationally. The Gibb NDB was an enroute aid to facilitate navigation between Glenroy and Wyndam. Talking to some of the older pilots involved in the Air Beef Scheme, my impression was that there were numerous flight each day into/out of Glenroy Station at the time.
Last edited by QSK?; 11th March 2011 at 23:32.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 4
From: Qld troppo
Glenroy station at the time was one of the largest abatoirs in the region (if not Australia) and DC3s and Bristol Freighters used to land to uplift beef products to Wyndham port for onwards shipping to the southern states and internationally.
No, the Glenroy Meatworks was actually very small. and unfortunately the Air Beef Scheme was interesting, but ill conceived and doomed to fail.
"The Glenroy Meatworks" was capable of handling up to 60 bullocks per day, with the abbatoir treating up to 2000 caracasses for the neighbouring stations per season.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
From: Mars
I think. The GIB NDB was originally installed to service the navigation needs of DC3s involved in the Air Beef Scheme in the late 1940s, early 50s,
Even on steam driven gear won't your rmi show flags when the ndb drops out and point 090/270?
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
From: Pacific
The ident is not a good warning of failure because it is not positive. Losing a signal is not going to wake you up like a warning tone would, or a flag. Most pilots would miss it, especially if there was something else going on that had their attention.
If you monitor the needle, you can tell it is working because it gives a consistent bearing. A needle that was stationary would attract my attention even if it was identing.
I had a Nav in a C47 tune the ADF (Radio Compass in those days!) in Auto then switch it to Antenna because that was the procedure he was used to, although in the airplane he usually flew the positions of the switch were reversed. So even though I could hear a fine ident, the needle was absolutely steady on the nose. I was feeling pretty good at how well I could fly a course until the error was picked up! It was pitch black and we were about 1000 feet below the tops of the nearby hills at the time, so it was a lesson well learned.
Many years later I was the only one of about 4 company 747s that landed in Taipei when the power failed at the airport in bad weather and the only aid still working was the NDB. The other crews were never taught how to fly the approach and they all diverted.
Sometimes the old ways still work. How long since you have done a GCA?
If you monitor the needle, you can tell it is working because it gives a consistent bearing. A needle that was stationary would attract my attention even if it was identing.
I had a Nav in a C47 tune the ADF (Radio Compass in those days!) in Auto then switch it to Antenna because that was the procedure he was used to, although in the airplane he usually flew the positions of the switch were reversed. So even though I could hear a fine ident, the needle was absolutely steady on the nose. I was feeling pretty good at how well I could fly a course until the error was picked up! It was pitch black and we were about 1000 feet below the tops of the nearby hills at the time, so it was a lesson well learned.
Many years later I was the only one of about 4 company 747s that landed in Taipei when the power failed at the airport in bad weather and the only aid still working was the NDB. The other crews were never taught how to fly the approach and they all diverted.
Sometimes the old ways still work. How long since you have done a GCA?
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 50
Likes: 65
From: FL370
There's plenty of places that have just one aid (NDB) plus RNAV. Sure, if you go there in IMC you will probably pick the RNAV approach to fly before the NDB
Having an ADF, being current on it, and using it for alternate requirements is quite different from chosing to actually fly an NDB appr in anger! Hard to imagine any flying IFR these days doesn't at least have a TSO 129 GPS available to them.
Last edited by gretzky99; 13th March 2011 at 12:44.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
From: North Queensland, Australia
Georgetown - OK, you got me. Not registered or certified so no GPS RNAV approach, but I have landed there a few times so I guess someone may want to go there occassionally.
RFDS Kingair used to be there every week for a clinic while I was working there five years ago.
RFDS Kingair used to be there every week for a clinic while I was working there five years ago.
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 6
From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
Something I particularly like about NDB approaches is that I always know where the beacon is w.r.t. to me. Not the same at all with a VOR. GPS is similar although can only give position in relation to track made good and not immediate heading. Bad luck in a 50 or 100 kt wind.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
From: France
NDB good points
Tinstaafl:
I agree with you, not only does it always point to the beacon but in some countries the NDB is at the inner locator position at the end of the runway so it is saying " look here is the end of the runway,dumb dumb."
Rgds
Tmb
I agree with you, not only does it always point to the beacon but in some countries the NDB is at the inner locator position at the end of the runway so it is saying " look here is the end of the runway,dumb dumb."
Rgds
Tmb
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
From: The cloud
Just turn the fmc to select fms or vor and it can show bearing too...
Rmi's also have a vor needle
gps can also change track to relative bearing - track made good - track required or even distance off track - and that's just the old garmin 100's
the worst approach ever is Darwin locator with thunderstorms all around typical tropical bs - it's already a bananna curve approach that can see you almost a mile outise of the intended splay let alone the allowable 5 degrees and the errors of passing weather. Lucky there aren't any high rises or towers between hws and dw or out over the coast...
Hurry up and decommision them I say...
Mind you there is something satisfying about doing a night circling ndb reversal with strong wind on those rare occasions you get the needle to just sit and obey your evey command ... About that time I wake up fro my dream though and realise oh yeah it's notamed u/s no wonder I didn't hear audio ...
Oops
cheers
r
Rmi's also have a vor needle
gps can also change track to relative bearing - track made good - track required or even distance off track - and that's just the old garmin 100's
the worst approach ever is Darwin locator with thunderstorms all around typical tropical bs - it's already a bananna curve approach that can see you almost a mile outise of the intended splay let alone the allowable 5 degrees and the errors of passing weather. Lucky there aren't any high rises or towers between hws and dw or out over the coast...
Hurry up and decommision them I say...
Mind you there is something satisfying about doing a night circling ndb reversal with strong wind on those rare occasions you get the needle to just sit and obey your evey command ... About that time I wake up fro my dream though and realise oh yeah it's notamed u/s no wonder I didn't hear audio ...
Oops
cheers
r
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 87
Likes: 4
From: Victoria
Tune Identify Test
Monitor during approach.
What is all this fuss about ndbs?
Incidentally many aircraft like Cirrus have not had an NDB receiver for years.
Those owners renewed on the VOR..
But like NDB approaches VOR is becoming few and far between MIA MTG AV ML?
Long way to travel for a flight test or practice and non sim recency.
Many owner ops have left receivers in the dash but during glass panel upgrades have removed the Indicator.
Reason I am informed is to be able to listen to the radio.
Pilots will also remember .that in the olden days control could issue a pilot instructions over a city ndb in the event of non comms.
Easy on us grey beards.
25 renewals never failed an approach..
did fail once for failing to climb to an assigned altitude within a certain time.. qed.
FYI we have just re-established an old NDB out west..
after a lot of encouragement from locals.
It will carry the AD weather broadcast as well as a morse id callsign.
you know the dits and dahs you find printed on your TAC chart legend?
and I am the old grey bearded fart that got it up an running, with a lot of support from locals.
I have had a huge learning curve about this mode of transmission and why it was established in the first place.
Don't write it off.
The skill is still being taught and practised by flying schools just watch flight radar atvADs carrying NDB approaches like HML SWH MTG.
And as they say talk about a whole lot of fuss and nonsense to do that.
It has been sanctioned and has been licensed
and believe it or not there are a number of old bold pilots who are willing to keep,their NDB skills current.
An NDB is a primary npa navigation system in the event of RAIM failure suitable for homing to an AD and was an essential element in the old NVMC as well as in CIR PIFR.
But calm down you won't need to demonstrate your ndb skills for a renewal probably ever again.
But those of us who do still get a buzz out of it.
If you never watch flight radar there are some pretty crappy pilots out there who really get their ndb approaches out of tolerance and others who do perfect holds and approaches.
Obviously flying schools are still teaching the subject and pilots travelling large distances out west to conduct an approach.
My advice if you are, you are leaving proof on flight radar how good or bad you are.
as they say it is what it is..
carry on...
watch this forum light up
WTF.?
cheers.
What is all this fuss about ndbs?
Incidentally many aircraft like Cirrus have not had an NDB receiver for years.
Those owners renewed on the VOR..
But like NDB approaches VOR is becoming few and far between MIA MTG AV ML?
Long way to travel for a flight test or practice and non sim recency.
Many owner ops have left receivers in the dash but during glass panel upgrades have removed the Indicator.
Reason I am informed is to be able to listen to the radio.
Pilots will also remember .that in the olden days control could issue a pilot instructions over a city ndb in the event of non comms.
Easy on us grey beards.
25 renewals never failed an approach..
did fail once for failing to climb to an assigned altitude within a certain time.. qed.
FYI we have just re-established an old NDB out west..
after a lot of encouragement from locals.
It will carry the AD weather broadcast as well as a morse id callsign.
you know the dits and dahs you find printed on your TAC chart legend?
and I am the old grey bearded fart that got it up an running, with a lot of support from locals.
I have had a huge learning curve about this mode of transmission and why it was established in the first place.
Don't write it off.
The skill is still being taught and practised by flying schools just watch flight radar atvADs carrying NDB approaches like HML SWH MTG.
And as they say talk about a whole lot of fuss and nonsense to do that.
It has been sanctioned and has been licensed
and believe it or not there are a number of old bold pilots who are willing to keep,their NDB skills current.
An NDB is a primary npa navigation system in the event of RAIM failure suitable for homing to an AD and was an essential element in the old NVMC as well as in CIR PIFR.
But calm down you won't need to demonstrate your ndb skills for a renewal probably ever again.
But those of us who do still get a buzz out of it.
If you never watch flight radar there are some pretty crappy pilots out there who really get their ndb approaches out of tolerance and others who do perfect holds and approaches.
Obviously flying schools are still teaching the subject and pilots travelling large distances out west to conduct an approach.
My advice if you are, you are leaving proof on flight radar how good or bad you are.
as they say it is what it is..
carry on...
watch this forum light up
WTF.?
cheers.
Last edited by ZAZ; 11th December 2024 at 16:00.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 77
Likes: 1
From: on the farm west of Melbourne
One advantage of NDB approaches was timing.
If I remember correctly (and that is increasingly doubtful) the NDB approach at airports like Rockhampton were 2.5 minute legs whereas the VOR was 8-10 miles.
So if you were trying to slip a C172 into a sequence in conditions below the DME(A) minima but above the NDB you could save everyone in the sequence five or six minutes.
If I remember correctly (and that is increasingly doubtful) the NDB approach at airports like Rockhampton were 2.5 minute legs whereas the VOR was 8-10 miles.
So if you were trying to slip a C172 into a sequence in conditions below the DME(A) minima but above the NDB you could save everyone in the sequence five or six minutes.