Ndb Approaches
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Melbourne
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Is anyone taught to monitor the ident function of the NDB when using it to track under the Night VFR? The only reason I think this would be a relevant argument is that Pilot X flying NVFR sets up the ADF enroute, does the TIT (whatever) checks and voila can use the ADF to track; and is endorsed to do so on his/her night rating.
Pilot Y is flying along under the IFR, on the same aid, under the same tracking tolerances; and according to this ATO in Sydney has to listen to the ident from TOD.
One could argue that since LSALTs come into play in both cases then why should X and Y be any different?
Pilot Y is flying along under the IFR, on the same aid, under the same tracking tolerances; and according to this ATO in Sydney has to listen to the ident from TOD.
One could argue that since LSALTs come into play in both cases then why should X and Y be any different?
CAR 159 requires the pilot to know if a navaid fails at any time which would preclude compliance with the Regs.
I guess that my vary with type.
If so then once identified you would have a failure indication
On modern jets the avionics identify the ident, SY for example, is displayed on the Nav Display.
If the aid subsequently fails the needle disappears from view. There is no need or requirement to listen to the audio unless this automatic ident function has failed.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
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I am assuming that most (if not all) of the posts here refer to steam driven cockpit indicators. On my panel if the ground station takes a rest then the needle flashes red and then takes some time off in sympathy with the ground station.
Can't do an approach with no indicator. I never monitor it except for initial ident when I dial it up.
Can't do an approach with no indicator. I never monitor it except for initial ident when I dial it up.
For what its worth,
When we (Me and my colleagues) were instructing we always had the ... -.--
very soft in the background at all times.
Very handy to listen out for any 'extra' tones which may indicate an aid unserviceability.....or its on standby pwr etc ....
At night, it just sounded so 're-assuring' - almost relaxing just to hear it 'beeping' away in the background - because ONE of 'us' was a 'b' who would turn the tuning knob, just a little, at a very inappropriate time.
We all thought it was good training...Don't know about a 'legal requirement' though...
Cheers
When we (Me and my colleagues) were instructing we always had the ... -.--
very soft in the background at all times.
Very handy to listen out for any 'extra' tones which may indicate an aid unserviceability.....or its on standby pwr etc ....
At night, it just sounded so 're-assuring' - almost relaxing just to hear it 'beeping' away in the background - because ONE of 'us' was a 'b' who would turn the tuning knob, just a little, at a very inappropriate time.
We all thought it was good training...Don't know about a 'legal requirement' though...
Cheers
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Formerly of Nam
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NDBs, terrible things
all their inherent errors the worst one is a let-down (at night)
while your up to your arse in storms. You have to take the
average needle reading and disregard them when they suddenly
jump to the direction of the closer lightning flashes. At the
minimum off a straight-in, one hopes to see the flamin airport
in front of him let alone the runway!
To answer the original question, I was taught the ident has
to start being listened to when leaving the IF, and when
leaving the enroute LSA/MSA (whichever is higher).
The requirement in the ATO manual is to pass the minimum of either the NDB or VOR during the test.
"A “pass” assessment in the flight test for the rating depends on satisfactory performance in:
1) General instrument flight
2) Use of NDB or VOR as a navigation and approach aid.
An unsatisfactory final performance in any item or procedure in these areas results in an overall fail assessment for the flight test. An unsatisfactory performance in the use of radio navigation aids other than the NDB or VOR does not result in a fail assessment."
The Instrument Rating Application (Form 645) item 34 for the NDB requires the ident to be monitored during approach. Item 57 requires the correct identification of navigation aids used.
"A “pass” assessment in the flight test for the rating depends on satisfactory performance in:
1) General instrument flight
2) Use of NDB or VOR as a navigation and approach aid.
An unsatisfactory final performance in any item or procedure in these areas results in an overall fail assessment for the flight test. An unsatisfactory performance in the use of radio navigation aids other than the NDB or VOR does not result in a fail assessment."
The Instrument Rating Application (Form 645) item 34 for the NDB requires the ident to be monitored during approach. Item 57 requires the correct identification of navigation aids used.
The Instrument Rating Application (Form 645) item 34 for the NDB requires the ident to be monitored during approach. Item 57 requires the correct identification of navigation aids used.
So it is identified by confirming the identifier, i.e. using the Howard Springs NDB you would expect to see HWS on your Nav display, if it fails then HWS will dissapear AND the needle will no longer be visible. That meets the requirements above without monitoring or even listening to the aural ident.
Now I am speaking from a jet perspective, and i'm not current on light aircraft, but I believe that some of them have some reasonably good gear so maybe they do the same.
The requirement in the ATO manual is to pass the minimum of either the NDB or VOR during the test.
"A “pass” assessment in the flight test for the rating depends on satisfactory performance in:
1) General instrument flight
2) Use of NDB or VOR as a navigation and approach aid.
An unsatisfactory final performance in any item or procedure in these areas results in an overall fail assessment for the flight test. An unsatisfactory performance in the use of radio navigation aids other than the NDB or VOR does not result in a fail assessment."
"A “pass” assessment in the flight test for the rating depends on satisfactory performance in:
1) General instrument flight
2) Use of NDB or VOR as a navigation and approach aid.
An unsatisfactory final performance in any item or procedure in these areas results in an overall fail assessment for the flight test. An unsatisfactory performance in the use of radio navigation aids other than the NDB or VOR does not result in a fail assessment."
Civil Aviation Order 40.2.1 22
4 Renewal
4.1. An applicant for renewal of a particular grade of instrument rating shall pass
the instrument rating test applicable to the initial issue of that grade of
instrument rating except that:
(a) proficiency in using 1 or more of RNAV(GNSS), ILS, LLZ, VOR, DME
or NDB may be demonstrated in a synthetic flight trainer approved for
the purpose — if proficiency in at least 1 other navigation aid is also
demonstrated in flight or in an approved flight simulator; and
(b) a demonstration of proficiency in using ILS or LLZ in accordance with
subparagraph (a) may be used to meet the proficiency testing
requirements for VOR — if proficiency in at least 1 other non-precision
instrument approach is demonstrated as part of the test; and
4 Renewal
4.1. An applicant for renewal of a particular grade of instrument rating shall pass
the instrument rating test applicable to the initial issue of that grade of
instrument rating except that:
(a) proficiency in using 1 or more of RNAV(GNSS), ILS, LLZ, VOR, DME
or NDB may be demonstrated in a synthetic flight trainer approved for
the purpose — if proficiency in at least 1 other navigation aid is also
demonstrated in flight or in an approved flight simulator; and
(b) a demonstration of proficiency in using ILS or LLZ in accordance with
subparagraph (a) may be used to meet the proficiency testing
requirements for VOR — if proficiency in at least 1 other non-precision
instrument approach is demonstrated as part of the test; and
Dr
Join Date: Nov 2009
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I just completed the MECIR at Ad Astral in WA a few weeks ago and their SOP's state that the ident needs to be listened to from 2nm to run to the aid and then left on until it is no longer being used (ie after the MAPt).
These guys have a pretty strong rep in the IF field so i'm thinking its on the mark....!
These guys have a pretty strong rep in the IF field so i'm thinking its on the mark....!
I just completed the MECIR at Ad Astral in WA a few weeks ago and their SOP's state that the ident needs to be listened to from 2nm to run to the aid and then left on until it is no longer being used (ie after the MAPt).
These guys have a pretty strong rep in the IF field so i'm thinking its on the mark....!
These guys have a pretty strong rep in the IF field so i'm thinking its on the mark....!
Having said that if you are using old gear then I suggest monitoring the aid below the LSALT/MSA is a more appropriate option than waiting for an arbitary 2nm.
If I am relying on one of these aids I would like to know if it failed, and they do.
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Apart from renewals and currency, why would anyone fly an NDB approach? Is there anywhere in Oz that has an NDB approach and not a ILS, VOR or GPS RNAV ?
Having an ADF, being current on it, and using it for alternate requirements is quite different from chosing to actually fly an NDB appr in anger! Hard to imagine any flying IFR these days doesn't at least have a TSO 129 GPS available to them.
Dr
Dr
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Point taken, yes if it was a ****ty rainy night you would more than likely take the extra 30 or so track miles to fly the GNSS approach. However the only way to stay current when not in the big city is to actually fly one. I havent flown one since my last renewal due to not being ADF equipped 99% of the time.
And as for people not having suitable gear in the aircraft well you may be surprised... Many that are equipped don't have up to date databases (due to stingy operators), and if flying a mixed fleet then the 3 on type in VMC and 1 in the previous 6 months requirement doesn't make it any easier - yes i realise that GNS430's are pretty much the industry standard these days.
Can we just have GNSS approved for azimuth tracking on DGA's please??
And as for people not having suitable gear in the aircraft well you may be surprised... Many that are equipped don't have up to date databases (due to stingy operators), and if flying a mixed fleet then the 3 on type in VMC and 1 in the previous 6 months requirement doesn't make it any easier - yes i realise that GNS430's are pretty much the industry standard these days.
Can we just have GNSS approved for azimuth tracking on DGA's please??
Out there in busted-ass GA land NDB approaches are an everyday occurrence in winter for pilots of operators who
A. Refuse to install IFR GPS units properly (Remote annunciators and HSI connection)
B. Refuse to keep databases current
C. Refuse to train / endorse pilots on GPS/RNAV approaches
There are still plenty of places out there where DME/GPS arrivals just won’t get you in with the higher circling minima and the NDB is the only option. When you do them regularly enough you get used to making corrections for the ADF errors, and let’s not forget even a Garmin 100 is worth its weight in gold for that "Bearing to Station" information. As for the ident in all my renewals and checks it has been SOP to monitor the ident during the approach. I don't remember ever monitoring it from TOD, only prior to passing the IAF.
A. Refuse to install IFR GPS units properly (Remote annunciators and HSI connection)
B. Refuse to keep databases current
C. Refuse to train / endorse pilots on GPS/RNAV approaches
There are still plenty of places out there where DME/GPS arrivals just won’t get you in with the higher circling minima and the NDB is the only option. When you do them regularly enough you get used to making corrections for the ADF errors, and let’s not forget even a Garmin 100 is worth its weight in gold for that "Bearing to Station" information. As for the ident in all my renewals and checks it has been SOP to monitor the ident during the approach. I don't remember ever monitoring it from TOD, only prior to passing the IAF.
Originally Posted by RENURPP
Thats all fine and beaut, however as I said and a post or two below me have said, you do not have to monitor the aural ident in some modern aircaft as the avionics identify the aid for you.
Originally Posted by ForkTailedDrKiller
The GPS RNAV is a non-precision approach, therefore, a pass on the ILS (which covers for the VOR) and GPS RNAV constitutes a valid renewal!
Originally Posted by ForkTailedDrKiller
Apart from renewals and currency, why would anyone fly an NDB approach?
Originally Posted by ForkTailedDrKiller
Is there anywhere in Oz that has an NDB approach and not a ILS, VOR or GPS RNAV ?
Care to share a route you think would enable a person to qualify for a renewal doing only that ?
Could be a whole lot quicker, and is not subject to head office or equipment generated RAIM predictions.
If a decision is made early to track for the appropriate GPS RNAV approach, I think there would be relatively few instances where the NDB is "a whole lot quicker".
Still a handful of places in Australia that only have an NDB approach.
Dr