Plane missing in north Queensland on way to Horn Island
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Binghi you really need to use your brain a bit more. 
Waghi Warrior said
and you went on to say
Clever bait laying, however would you stop suggesting people say things they did not. You put the words in WW's mouth that suggest he thinks ALL aircraft up there are that way. He never said that at all. 
What he was suggesting in my opinion is that some (thats means not all) are beyond their use by dates, and under a coat of paint they look great but hidden beneath are all sorts of mysteries.
Therefore when you have a seemingly good aeroplane, MR all up to date there is still a very real risk that all is not perfectly safe for flight.
And that is an assumption you take Capitano Binghi when you do your daily and sign it out. Did you personally inspect all the flight controls? NO Did you crack test all the critical linkages? NO Did you boroscope the engine? NO Did you overhaul the Mags yourself? NO.
So you ASSUME that because it has vaild MR these things are all in check.
So Capitano Binghi..........your superior daily inspection skills and X-Ray vission must make you the safest guy in the Tropics then huh?
Sorry folks..........I will try not to feed the Troll any more. I might have to use that ignore button for the first time
Waghi Warrior said
Good to see some varied opinions on my last however I agree with Josh, also as I mentioned in my last, if the aircraft is maintained correctly there shouldn't be any major problems !!!! However I don't dismiss that some of these aircraft (And I'm not only specifically talking about Commanders) are well and truly operating beyond their used by dates. It's amazing what a good coat of paint can cover up !
Waghi Warrior are you saying that the aircraft up north are not properly maintained ?
What he was suggesting in my opinion is that some (thats means not all) are beyond their use by dates, and under a coat of paint they look great but hidden beneath are all sorts of mysteries.
Therefore when you have a seemingly good aeroplane, MR all up to date there is still a very real risk that all is not perfectly safe for flight.
Post maintenance it is fer the pilot/capitano to ultimately decide if the aircraft is good to go.
So you ASSUME that because it has vaild MR these things are all in check.
So Capitano Binghi..........your superior daily inspection skills and X-Ray vission must make you the safest guy in the Tropics then huh?
Sorry folks..........I will try not to feed the Troll any more. I might have to use that ignore button for the first time
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Without intending to divulge from the original thread topic any further, the myth of "wing clapping" has been pointed out by "Mainframe". Perhaps I can shed some light on the myth of the Shrike wing spar.
*This is coming from someone who has done nothing but read about and discuss the ins and out of the Shrike and its peers for the last few months in an attempt to find a suitable aircraft for our operation. I am not endorsed on the aircraft.
Wing failures due to wing overload in all of the cases I have read about, occur with almost symmetrical downward separation of both wings. Wing clapping in the YMCA dance fashion does not normally happen.
The original CAR 3 ultimate flight loads of the 500 were +6.6 and -2.7g, and the CASA approved ultimate flight loads for the STC'd increase in MTOW are +5.7 and -2.28g. To exceed these limits, you would need to subject the airframe to one hell of a strong gust, that would more than likely destroy any GA aircraft not just a Shrike.
From the VH-YJB report:
*This is coming from someone who has done nothing but read about and discuss the ins and out of the Shrike and its peers for the last few months in an attempt to find a suitable aircraft for our operation. I am not endorsed on the aircraft.
Wing failures due to wing overload in all of the cases I have read about, occur with almost symmetrical downward separation of both wings. Wing clapping in the YMCA dance fashion does not normally happen.
The original CAR 3 ultimate flight loads of the 500 were +6.6 and -2.7g, and the CASA approved ultimate flight loads for the STC'd increase in MTOW are +5.7 and -2.28g. To exceed these limits, you would need to subject the airframe to one hell of a strong gust, that would more than likely destroy any GA aircraft not just a Shrike.
From the VH-YJB report:
An examination of the relevant fracture surfaces found that there was no evidence of a pre-existing fault or structural weakness in either wing spar. None of the failed wing main structural load-bearing elements showed any evidence of cracking or corrosion. All fracture features were typical of ductile, tensile or shear failure under elevated stresses.
This particular airframe had done in the region of 150 hours since being imported from the US, where it had spent its entire life operating to the original CAR 3 MTOW.
This accident serves to highlight the dangers of sudden control inputs to correct flight path deviations due to turbulence:
This particular airframe had done in the region of 150 hours since being imported from the US, where it had spent its entire life operating to the original CAR 3 MTOW.
This accident serves to highlight the dangers of sudden control inputs to correct flight path deviations due to turbulence:
The reconstruction determined that the breakup initiated from the separation of both left and right outer wings sections at symmetrical locations. Both main spar wing breaks coincided with the outboard flap/aileron transition and exhibited overstress in a downward direction.
Sounds like a mountain wave rolling the aircraft one way with the pilot making control inputs the opposite way, at a speed above the calculated Va for the aircrafts MTOW ( which was 400Kg less than the original CAR 3 certified MTOW). A mis understanding of the terms and meaning of Va, Vb and Vp seems common.
The Shrike spar issues are detailed in the document issued by CASA and found here: http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/pape...ocommander.pdf
As the disclaimer states, this document is not so much a critique of the Aero commander but more uses the aircraft as an example to typify the practicalities of controlling fatigue in small commuter aircraft. I doubt that until SIDS for the Cessnas came out, anyone had done as much of an in depth analysis into fatigue. Even after the findings from all the investigations on the Aero Commander CASA still allow the MTOW increase STC.
A number of Cessna's have lost wings and they are subject to a much more scruitinsing inspection schedule than the Aero Commander, yet they dont recieve anywhere near the hammering that the Commander gets. A number of Cessna's have life limits imposed because it cant be guaranteed that they will hold together any longer. Likewise the Partenavia. I would love to see the results of an investigation of the scale of the Aero Commander one, if it were conducted on the PA31 or similar type.
How many in-flight break ups did Bob Hoover suffer in his time flying AC50's? I know that the majority of the time the aircraft was kept at 1g but there was also a lot of loops and rolls.
People should look beyond criticising the Aero-Commander and perhaps look at the bigger problem of poorly maintained aircraft and poor pilot education in the dissemination / application of Va, Vb and Vp. I am in no way implying the subject accident of this thread was a result of either.
Sounds like a mountain wave rolling the aircraft one way with the pilot making control inputs the opposite way, at a speed above the calculated Va for the aircrafts MTOW ( which was 400Kg less than the original CAR 3 certified MTOW). A mis understanding of the terms and meaning of Va, Vb and Vp seems common.
The Shrike spar issues are detailed in the document issued by CASA and found here: http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/pape...ocommander.pdf
As the disclaimer states, this document is not so much a critique of the Aero commander but more uses the aircraft as an example to typify the practicalities of controlling fatigue in small commuter aircraft. I doubt that until SIDS for the Cessnas came out, anyone had done as much of an in depth analysis into fatigue. Even after the findings from all the investigations on the Aero Commander CASA still allow the MTOW increase STC.
A number of Cessna's have lost wings and they are subject to a much more scruitinsing inspection schedule than the Aero Commander, yet they dont recieve anywhere near the hammering that the Commander gets. A number of Cessna's have life limits imposed because it cant be guaranteed that they will hold together any longer. Likewise the Partenavia. I would love to see the results of an investigation of the scale of the Aero Commander one, if it were conducted on the PA31 or similar type.
How many in-flight break ups did Bob Hoover suffer in his time flying AC50's? I know that the majority of the time the aircraft was kept at 1g but there was also a lot of loops and rolls.
People should look beyond criticising the Aero-Commander and perhaps look at the bigger problem of poorly maintained aircraft and poor pilot education in the dissemination / application of Va, Vb and Vp. I am in no way implying the subject accident of this thread was a result of either.
I saw that one TM, it was on the reef just short of the beach within a couple of hundred meters of where another AC500 crashed with fatal results a few years before.
FB, I didn't mention anything about aircraft up north, it was a general comment.
In regard to the MR being valid and the aircraft is safe to fly, yes it is from a legal point of view, however occasionally I have come across aircraft that aren't safe to fly in, with MR's indicating no reported defects on them with 1 hour to go before a check, and the machine looks like it's never been in a hangar since it was manufactured. I know this raises a few eyebrows on ramp checks, and so it should if the aircraft looks untidy and shabby.
Holding for a considerable amount of time due to weather can really stress the hell out of me, not because of fuel but just due to the workload of having to do approaches and missed approaches. I have the luxury to be able to fly with another pilot in my current job. If I'm ever going to have to circle or get down low for what ever reason, which does happen from time to time in the highlands of PNG where we have no other alternative sometimes, and this is legal in PNG, Ala Tabubil and Chimbu style. I always nominate a minimum airspeed and a minimum altitude that I will operate to and I fully brief the other pilot to continuously monitor this, ie speak up when required and just don't sit there and watch me stall the aircraft or fly the thing into the ground. This is extremely important in drizzle, rain, or where there is fog. The fatigue levels really increases as well when operating under these conditions, so you have to be really aware of and know you fatigue limits, not only as an individual but as a crew as well. You also have to be aware of the other crew members experience level, especially if the other pilot is a low timer. CRM and human factors play a huge role, and operating single pilot is even worse.
Anyway I really think the thread is starting to drift somewhat.
Have a great day everyone and remember to keep the blue up and the rest down.
Safe flying.
FB, I didn't mention anything about aircraft up north, it was a general comment.
In regard to the MR being valid and the aircraft is safe to fly, yes it is from a legal point of view, however occasionally I have come across aircraft that aren't safe to fly in, with MR's indicating no reported defects on them with 1 hour to go before a check, and the machine looks like it's never been in a hangar since it was manufactured. I know this raises a few eyebrows on ramp checks, and so it should if the aircraft looks untidy and shabby.
Holding for a considerable amount of time due to weather can really stress the hell out of me, not because of fuel but just due to the workload of having to do approaches and missed approaches. I have the luxury to be able to fly with another pilot in my current job. If I'm ever going to have to circle or get down low for what ever reason, which does happen from time to time in the highlands of PNG where we have no other alternative sometimes, and this is legal in PNG, Ala Tabubil and Chimbu style. I always nominate a minimum airspeed and a minimum altitude that I will operate to and I fully brief the other pilot to continuously monitor this, ie speak up when required and just don't sit there and watch me stall the aircraft or fly the thing into the ground. This is extremely important in drizzle, rain, or where there is fog. The fatigue levels really increases as well when operating under these conditions, so you have to be really aware of and know you fatigue limits, not only as an individual but as a crew as well. You also have to be aware of the other crew members experience level, especially if the other pilot is a low timer. CRM and human factors play a huge role, and operating single pilot is even worse.
Anyway I really think the thread is starting to drift somewhat.
Have a great day everyone and remember to keep the blue up and the rest down.
Safe flying.
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Mmmm, one must be very careful here. Happened to work on HID in late 90's, serviced aircraft belonging to most of the operators into Torres Strait. Including some that remain there today.
It is fair, but harsh, to say that the culture at the time was one of avoidance rather than compliance - and yes (gulp) engineering was complicit in this.
TM
n regard to the MR being valid and the aircraft is safe to fly, yes it is from a legal point of view, however occasionally I have come across aircraft that aren't safe to fly in, with MR's indicating no reported defects on them with 1 hour to go before a check, and the machine looks like it's never been in a hangar since it was manufactured. I know this raises a few eyebrows on ramp checks, and so it should if the aircraft looks untidy and shabby.
It is fair, but harsh, to say that the culture at the time was one of avoidance rather than compliance - and yes (gulp) engineering was complicit in this.
TM
TM,
I fully understand, and as you mentioned it's really a GA culture issue to some degree. From the way that I see it, things may be turning around for the better, given the amount of opinions and views that people have posted on this and other forums in relation to the way some operators have been behaving. Thing's will never be perfect, but if they can get better at least that's a start.
As for CASA, well lets no go down that road please !
I fully understand, and as you mentioned it's really a GA culture issue to some degree. From the way that I see it, things may be turning around for the better, given the amount of opinions and views that people have posted on this and other forums in relation to the way some operators have been behaving. Thing's will never be perfect, but if they can get better at least that's a start.
As for CASA, well lets no go down that road please !
Update – overdue light aircraft, Far Northern Region
by Queensland Police Service on Monday, 28 February 2011 at 13:57
Police continue to conduct land sweeps of Horn Island, Prince of Wales and the Northern Peninsular for a light aircraft that failed to arrive at its destination last week.
The aircraft, which was travelling from Cairns to Horn Island, failed to arrive at its destination on Thursday morning.
Extensive air, land and sea searches have been conducted in the area since then but have failed to find any sign of the light aircraft.
Police believe the pilot, a 37-year-old Yorky’s Knob man was the only person in the aircraft at the time of the incident.
by Queensland Police Service on Monday, 28 February 2011 at 13:57
Police continue to conduct land sweeps of Horn Island, Prince of Wales and the Northern Peninsular for a light aircraft that failed to arrive at its destination last week.
The aircraft, which was travelling from Cairns to Horn Island, failed to arrive at its destination on Thursday morning.
Extensive air, land and sea searches have been conducted in the area since then but have failed to find any sign of the light aircraft.
Police believe the pilot, a 37-year-old Yorky’s Knob man was the only person in the aircraft at the time of the incident.
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Fork~
There was one last year in Namibia where a C210 crashed. Havent seen the report but a sat tracking readout showed a high g load prior to the crash. Single pilot doing a freight run... believed to be doing a barrel roll while bored.
I have no time on the Commander but as someone touched on before about a runaway trim. Wouldnt pulling the circuit breaker on the electric trim solve this? Or is it more of a mechanical issue?
The scary bit is how there was no radio call at all. Where is the power source located in the commander? Or how about the avionics?
There was one last year in Namibia where a C210 crashed. Havent seen the report but a sat tracking readout showed a high g load prior to the crash. Single pilot doing a freight run... believed to be doing a barrel roll while bored.
I have no time on the Commander but as someone touched on before about a runaway trim. Wouldnt pulling the circuit breaker on the electric trim solve this? Or is it more of a mechanical issue?
The scary bit is how there was no radio call at all. Where is the power source located in the commander? Or how about the avionics?
Check Attitude
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Interesting reading.
Cairns Post update:
Twist of fate in flight of tragedy- Local Cairns News | cairns.com.au
Forget the wings clapping or slapping, the MR etc etc.
The aircraft flew from Cairns to Horn Island, It arrived but held in the vicinity due weather, radio reports were made, it disappeared while holding.
The pilot wasn't rostered for the flight, he was called in because
the rostered pilot declined the flight based on his assessment of the prevailing weather at the destination.
Cairns Post update:
Twist of fate in flight of tragedy- Local Cairns News | cairns.com.au
Forget the wings clapping or slapping, the MR etc etc.
The aircraft flew from Cairns to Horn Island, It arrived but held in the vicinity due weather, radio reports were made, it disappeared while holding.
The pilot wasn't rostered for the flight, he was called in because
the rostered pilot declined the flight based on his assessment of the prevailing weather at the destination.
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WZU
(the rostered pilot declined the flight based on his assessment of the prevailing weather at the destination)
And dont forget 'Mainframe', the rostered pilot was not very experienced, particularly with those conditions in our very wet season, and the Chief Pilot, who was very familiar with the conditions, wasnt called in,,, he nominated himself to the task, and he was a very capable pilot.
And dont forget 'Mainframe', the rostered pilot was not very experienced, particularly with those conditions in our very wet season, and the Chief Pilot, who was very familiar with the conditions, wasnt called in,,, he nominated himself to the task, and he was a very capable pilot.
Last edited by zac21; 1st Mar 2011 at 10:32. Reason: inclusion
Has the change from "Hard wired"121.5 beacons to 406 hand helds in most light aircraft contributed to not finding this aircraft?
I would presume the last thing you would be thinking of that close to the earths surface would be getting the 406 beacon from behind a seat, jammed in a seat pocket and activating it.
Should the 406 beacons be hard wired like the old 121.5????
I would presume the last thing you would be thinking of that close to the earths surface would be getting the 406 beacon from behind a seat, jammed in a seat pocket and activating it.
Should the 406 beacons be hard wired like the old 121.5????
To get a few facts straight, the failure rate of "hard wired" ELT in actual accident scenarios is about 95%, except where the aircraft goes into the water, then the failure rate is 100%.
See CASA figures from the post implementation study, which confirmed the AOPA research into actual accidents, published in 1995.
There never was a final regulation in Australia to force the fitting of fixed ELT, it was repealed in about 1996, and the "new" regulations made at the same time.
Tootle pip!!
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the pilot supposed to fly, unlike the news paper said, it was decently experienced, but new of Cairns, and I think he refused to fly that night because of heavy storm activity without a weather radar.
I think it was a sensitive decision.
I think it was a sensitive decision.
It is a known problem:
that because the outcome was so bad the risks should have been recognised prior to the incident.
Just heard on radio 6PR - Perth - 0830 Local news - that 'some wreckage has been located on or near Dugong Island, some 80km E of Horn Island'.....was all that I managed to hear.
I think you are spot on Blackhand.
However, surely when one experienced crew member declines the flight due to very valid safety reasons and another one goes in their place, investigators must smell a rat. The risks apparently were recognised before the flight.
Terrible waste of life, I feel sorry for both pilots.
However, surely when one experienced crew member declines the flight due to very valid safety reasons and another one goes in their place, investigators must smell a rat. The risks apparently were recognised before the flight.
Terrible waste of life, I feel sorry for both pilots.
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Experts check if debris linked to missing plane
By Brad Ryan
Posted 3 hours 33 minutes ago
Air safety authorities are investigating whether debris found yesterday in the Torres Strait, off far north Queensland, is connected to a missing plane.
The plane, flown by a 37-year-old man, left Cairns for Horn Island last Thursday.
Authorities say search crews yesterday found debris, including a tub, near Dugong Island, about 80 kilometres east of Horn Island.
The debris is being assessed, while air and sea searches focus on waters between Dugong and Moa islands.
There has been no sign of the pilot, who last made radio contact just before his twin-engine plane was due to land at Horn Island.
Authorities say it is a mystery because the pilot spoke to air traffic controllers 15 minutes before the scheduled landing and there was no indication at any stage there were problems.
(ABC)
Posted 3 hours 33 minutes ago
Air safety authorities are investigating whether debris found yesterday in the Torres Strait, off far north Queensland, is connected to a missing plane.
The plane, flown by a 37-year-old man, left Cairns for Horn Island last Thursday.
Authorities say search crews yesterday found debris, including a tub, near Dugong Island, about 80 kilometres east of Horn Island.
The debris is being assessed, while air and sea searches focus on waters between Dugong and Moa islands.
There has been no sign of the pilot, who last made radio contact just before his twin-engine plane was due to land at Horn Island.
Authorities say it is a mystery because the pilot spoke to air traffic controllers 15 minutes before the scheduled landing and there was no indication at any stage there were problems.
(ABC)
Pilot's dad hopes search will go on- Local Cairns News | cairns.com.au
THE father of a Cairns pilot feared dead after his plane went missing in the Torres Strait is holding out hope a team of police divers can find the aircraft.
"We are very upset but it has been a week and there is little chance of finding him unless we find the plane," he said.
"I think they have just about exhausted the resources they have up there.
"We are hopeful if the search continues, they will find the plane."
Mr Aldhamland was the chief pilot for Amity Airways, recording many hours flying time in Papua New Guinea
THE father of a Cairns pilot feared dead after his plane went missing in the Torres Strait is holding out hope a team of police divers can find the aircraft.
"We are very upset but it has been a week and there is little chance of finding him unless we find the plane," he said.
"I think they have just about exhausted the resources they have up there.
"We are hopeful if the search continues, they will find the plane."
Mr Aldhamland was the chief pilot for Amity Airways, recording many hours flying time in Papua New Guinea
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Well, they've found wreckage (plastic crates and a document) that have been confirmed as being from VH-WZU.
This has to give some reasonably good indication of the position of the aircraft remains, unless the currents are particularly strong in that area?
The depth charts for the area show vast areas of relatively shallow water (< 200M), so the wreckage has to have a good chance of being found, relatively soon?
http://www.amsa.gov.au/About_AMSA/Me...0concludes.pdf
This has to give some reasonably good indication of the position of the aircraft remains, unless the currents are particularly strong in that area?
The depth charts for the area show vast areas of relatively shallow water (< 200M), so the wreckage has to have a good chance of being found, relatively soon?
http://www.amsa.gov.au/About_AMSA/Me...0concludes.pdf