Decommissioning ground navaids

[Dick N. Cider]

Where will they spend the $120M?

At "Waypoint" last year they talked about $800M of urgent infrastructure upgrades that they're borrowing money to fund. TAAATS is already at it's use by date and requires replacing (it's been 15 years). Draft pricing policy has increased charges (but reduced in "real" terms). Presumably most of it will be used to offset the massive hole in the bucket.

DNC

Airservices Australia - Projects & Services - Industry Forums - Waypoint

[bushy]

If you take the NDB's out you can expect SAR costs to go up.
There are about 10,000 non airline aircraft.

[bankrunner]

Originally Posted by chimbu warrior

It is an unfortunate truth that ground-based navaids are expensive to run (power requirements), and repair (imagine the cost of getting 2 technicians to Birdsville or Balgo).

Not just the cost, how long do you reckon it'd take them to get around to getting out there to take a look at it, then organise to fix it? Take Griffith for an example, and that's only 4 hours by road from CB. (At least I assume the VOR there is busted, rather than as a result of works etc.)

Code:

                                                    C0001/11 REVIEW C0072/10
       VOR/DME 'GTH' 114.8/95X NOT AVBL
       FROM 01 200119 TO 03 250600 EST

[TriMedGroup]

Mildura VOR/DME been U/S since November, NOTAM was initially til the end of Jan, now extended to the end of March. Not good fun having to carry alternate fuel for Nhill, or if the WX is no good there, then Adelaide. New plane will definately have TSO146 gear AND an ADF.

RNAV's are great but when there's an NDB, generally there is a DGA. And they save a lot of time and fuel when there is only one RNAV at the destination I.e Mildura to Swan Hill. Unless of course, CASA is planning on letting us use GNSS for tracking purposes on a DGA???

[Jabawocky]

That is coming allegedly..........don't your breath

[400ER]

"Gps is permitted in lieu of DME", that solves flying the arc. In the machine I drive the Gps sensors are disabled during a VOR approach, so no tracking information. We're also required to have the navaid pointers underlying when in FMS.

[Hempy]

Don't get me wrong mate, I'm not saying it's 'correct' or, in your case, usable...I'm just saying that's the justification (although if the omni is out as well it probably should also state 'GPS in lieu of VOR'? )

[Evil Twin]

I've a question on this one that I can't seem to find the answer for. Can anyone give me a nudge in the right direction?

When using GNSS in lieu of DME when carrying out a VOR/NDB approach if you receive a RAIM outage warning can you continue the approach?

I'm aware that you cannot descend below LSALT/MSA etc. if you have a RAIM outage but what I'm asking for is once the approach has been commenced and an outage occurs.

Any help please?

Cheers ET

[Trent 972]

AIP ENR 1.5 -11

1.12 Missed Approach Requirements - GNSS
1.12.1 If a loss of RAIM or RAIM warning is indicated at any time after passing the Initial Approach Fix, the pilot must immediately carry out a missed approach in accordance with published procedures.
1.12.2 Provided the RAIM warning ceases when the missed approach is selected on the GPS receiver, the GPS may be used for missed approach guidance.
1.12.3 Should the RAIM warning remain when the missed approach is se- lected, or should there be any doubt about the accuracy of the GPS, then an alternative means of guidance or dead reckoning must be used to fly the missed approach.

[Evil Twin]

Thanks Trent but I'm not talking about during an RNAV only for when using GNSS in lieu of DME for distance information when conducting a NDB or VOR approach.

Cheers ET

[Trent 972]

No probs Evil.
If you have a look at AIP GEN 1.5 -5/6 (Radio Navigation Systems) and consider the ramifications of note 5. I think you might agree that my previous reply was the answer to your question.
regards

edit - afterthought!
I may have erroneously assumed you are asking about a vor/dme (ndb/dme) approach, in that the dme was required for the approach. Otherwise depends on the type of IFR op.

[MACH082]

Any raim warning when using the GPS below the MSA in IMC requires you to fly the published missed approach.

This applies to a VOR/NDB DME approach which has a lower minima due to the increased accuracy from he DME/GPS.

This also applies to a GPS/DME arrival as you're using the GPS for the steps.

It certainly applies for a GPS RNAV.

If RAIM isn't available, do another type of approach!

[Evil Twin]

Thanks Mach that's the answer I was looking for.

Cheers
ET

[Hempy]

If RAIM isn't available, do another type of approach!

as long as it doesn't involve a ground based navigation aid.....

[Clearedtoreenter]

So how many RAIM outages have you folks experienced on your screens lately? I've had one since 1995 and that turned out to be a software glitch on an early Garmin 300XL that was fixed by the agent. Predicatable RAIM outages are on NOTAMS but they are mostly short term and can be avoided(?) it's not like having a dodgy NDB for months on end or an ILS fall over.

If the norm in GA was not to fly old crap boxes with shagged out avionics that came out of the arc, we would not need NDB/VOR or the expense associated with them.... ASA should put unreliable old tech where it belongs and save a lot of taxpayer dough, and if GA can't update, then it should not be flying IFR.

Yesterday at Sydney in all the crap weather the 16R ILS was out and it was RNAV only. Was a real problem for the heavies with RAIM in and out. Not.

[Flying Binghi]

via Clearedtoreenter;
...ASA should put unreliable old tech where it belongs and save a lot of taxpayer dough, ...

Hmmm... and what do we use to navigate IFR when the GPS system gets turned off ?..




.

[Pera]

The risk vs cost benefit of reducing nav aids is undeniable. A very low likelihood of GPS being turned off, a basic network will still exist, and consequences are unlikely to be safety related.

[Flying Binghi]

via Pera;

...A very low likelihood of GPS being turned off,...

Yeah, well... The Israely's have already had to scramble the GPS signal to 'upset' a terrorist drone. The most heavily defended airspace on the planet didn't see the terror drone coming. Them wanna-be ossamas have just started to realise the terror drone potential - expect more to come... Many more...

via Pera;
...and consequences are unlikely to be safety related.

If not safety related - then what will it be ?





.

[Captain Nomad]

Hmm, yes, and what about no ground based aids when one of my 3 GPS receivers does this (as happened recently). The antenna amplifier in the stand alone standby unit randomly started acting as an oscillator and cancelled out its own signal reception and also the nearby antennas and signal reception of the other two GPS receivers connected to the FMS! This resulted in random short periods where all three GPS units went into DR mode resulting in complete loss of RNAV with EPU and CDI deflection going out to 8 nm in some cases! You can have receiver redundancy but sometimes that doesn't solve all the problems... I'll keep the VORs and NDBs thanks...

[Up-into-the-air]

atsb and ndb's

Might be old technology, but doesn't suffer from raim's and I am sure with a block of concrete as an anchor, that the NDB stays in the same place.

Remember Benalla and Lockhart River for "minor" gps problems.