50 operators closed down.
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50 operators closed down.
50 joy flight operators shut down, in one fell swoop. What a rumor. Can it possibly be true ??. I hope not.
Apparently; 'technically' they are classed (under a strict black and white interpretation) as a RPT operation. So cease and desist, immediately.
Our rules can be and are being used this way by anally retentive ex industry pilots who are qualified lawyers.
No discussion, no voice of reason, no time allowed to accommodate a 'new' management philosophy.
Hang you heads Australian operators, SHAME on you, if you allow this to go on - unchallenged.
It's time gentleman, as the only valid experts (time and experience) guardians of operational sense to regain control of the industry.
Fellah 's, the lunatics are officially running the asylum.
It's time the head lunatic resigned.
Horses Joyce ! , we are leaving the country anyway. Stuff 'em.
Apparently; 'technically' they are classed (under a strict black and white interpretation) as a RPT operation. So cease and desist, immediately.
Our rules can be and are being used this way by anally retentive ex industry pilots who are qualified lawyers.
No discussion, no voice of reason, no time allowed to accommodate a 'new' management philosophy.
Hang you heads Australian operators, SHAME on you, if you allow this to go on - unchallenged.
It's time gentleman, as the only valid experts (time and experience) guardians of operational sense to regain control of the industry.
Fellah 's, the lunatics are officially running the asylum.
It's time the head lunatic resigned.
Horses Joyce ! , we are leaving the country anyway. Stuff 'em.
Last edited by Rose_Thorns; 18th Jan 2011 at 08:29. Reason: Bloody formatting!!!!.
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Out of respect and coutesy, a reply.
Griffo,
I have posted the news as I heard it. It is apparently true. Class A Chieftains, PN68 etc. and even the venerable C 210's. CAR 217 approval, the whole works.
Where are the 1500 hour pilots going to come from ???.
It was almost impossible to obtain CAR 217 for < 5700 Kg (policy son, policy,) but now apparently, a joy/scenic/ tour operator (a) can't own a travel agent and (b) must be an approved RPT operation.
What a complete load of Bollicks. It's an Airwork operation at best for xxzzsake.
If the GA industry can't stick together, for 5 minutes, to get shut of this purblind, mindless, irresponsible attitude, we are sunk, with a capital S.
'Nuff said Joyce, whip 'em up.
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Where you been?
Geez ROSE where have you been lately. This change to the legislation has been on the drawing boards for some time. I couldn't be stuffed looking for a date but the rules will be changed soon and you had better get with the programme. You might want to have a read of the proposed legislation though before you go right off. I think there is some cut off point, 6 seats or more, or something like that. I am not one for finer detail but I am sure you will find a solution if you read the fine print.
One thing I do know for sure is that if you don't have CAR 217 Training & Checking approval you can use an outside contractor in much the same way as you would ring an ATO to do your Instrument renewal. No biggie really and it really will go a long way toward getting rid of the shonks.
Groggy
One thing I do know for sure is that if you don't have CAR 217 Training & Checking approval you can use an outside contractor in much the same way as you would ring an ATO to do your Instrument renewal. No biggie really and it really will go a long way toward getting rid of the shonks.
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Eventually as an operator if you carry passengers for hire or reward whether "RPT" or "Charter" you will be treated the same by the regulator. This is hardly news. Under the present regs, doing joy flights just don't do it to a schedule, have aircraft and pilots available when you have enough pax to make it economical you take off. You only have to remove one of the conditions that make it RPT for it to be ad-hoc charter. That is until the regs change.
Eventually as an operator if you carry passengers for hire or reward whether "RPT" or "Charter" you will be treated the same by the regulator.
From memory, NZ CAA uses A to A flights plus A to remote areas as the equivalent of our "airwork" but all A to B passenger flights then fall into the same (more or less rpt) category based on aircraft size (135, 125, 121 etc). Seemed to work a lot better and didn't give u a lower standard of trained pilot just because you hire a whole plane instead of just one seat, yet still allows adventure flights and the like to operate without as much red tape. I reckon it would work well here in oz.
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If the public knew the risk they were taking getting on some of these planes CASA wouldn't have to worry about shutting them down
Tightar$es running on the smell of an oily rag, not paying their bills, not paying their pilots (everybody else seems to get paid).......
About time the industry had a good cleanout.
Tightar$es running on the smell of an oily rag, not paying their bills, not paying their pilots (everybody else seems to get paid).......
About time the industry had a good cleanout.
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If GA operators took control of the industry it would be the best airshow ever seen. Crowds would flock to to see the dare devils takeoff with missing engines, missing windscreens, missing doors, dented aircraft etc. . A C152 would be certified Cat IIIB, all aircraft would be certified to carry an extra 300kg. over mtow and maintenance would be allowed to be done by the aircraft owner every 10000 hrs. .
Yeah time to unite operators!
Yeah time to unite operators!
Last edited by Captain707; 18th Jan 2011 at 19:45.
Apparently; 'technically' they are classed (under a strict black and white interpretation) as a RPT operation.
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This was raised about 12 years ago in relation to helicopter scenic flights. It was the interpretation of one FOI and was soon buried.
When the full impact of that decision (runways were required to meet certain standards; ground agents; weather reporting etc) was explained to certain politicians CASA was told in no uncertain terms to pull their heads in and the services were allowed to continue although, I think, with some restrictions.
However, when talking some years ago with a fellow who had just done a season at "Kunners" who explained how they did their scenic flights at the same time every day, over the same route with pax seats sold on an individual basis, it did raise in my mind the possibility of it being classified as RPT.
The question shouldn't be whether the operation fits the rules but whether the rules fit the operation.
Just because the rules exist and have been developed for one form of RPT doesn't mean they should be applied blanket-fashion to all other operations which meet a relatively narrow definition.
Prescriptive rules by their very nature, will inhibit or suppress innovation which doesn't necessarily guarantee a net safety benefit to society. For example, it might make aviation appear safer, but if people are forced to use other forms of transport, the social benefit may actually be negative.
Australia and Australians have a tendency to worship the rule book, which is IMO not a healthy thing.
A
Just because the rules exist and have been developed for one form of RPT doesn't mean they should be applied blanket-fashion to all other operations which meet a relatively narrow definition.
Prescriptive rules by their very nature, will inhibit or suppress innovation which doesn't necessarily guarantee a net safety benefit to society. For example, it might make aviation appear safer, but if people are forced to use other forms of transport, the social benefit may actually be negative.
Australia and Australians have a tendency to worship the rule book, which is IMO not a healthy thing.
A
Every operator I worked for sold the seats on an individual basis, although the flight did not proceed unless a minimum aircraft rate was achieved.
RPT the flight will proceed regardless. Scenic, the flight will only proceed if the flight will make money.
We always thought it was a little gray, but it has been happening since the dawn of aviation.
RPT the flight will proceed regardless. Scenic, the flight will only proceed if the flight will make money.
We always thought it was a little gray, but it has been happening since the dawn of aviation.
Not sure about the helicopter bit or that it has been buried.
GAM @ Chinchilla?
Doesn't GAM do "Regular Public Charter" through the auspices of a Chinchilla-based travel agent?
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Oh good grief!! has the Skull finally lost his rag?? If this rumour is true?.
Then again given his testimony to the Senate commitee ie the 12 mile limit,amongst others, I'm inclined to think he's capable of anything. Its just so totally absurd, it would take someone totally out of their mind to dream it up.
The loonies really are loose in the asylum. Either that or CASA are so desperate for funds and so totally out of touch with the GA industry, or any other industry for that matter that they have finally arrived in La La land.
If you wish to run a business doing tourist scenic flights, Joy flights they called them in my day, and my Dad's day, and my Grandfathers day, hell that was my first job. You need to pay us, (CASA) thousands of dollars, Na ten's of thousands of dollars, Na hundred's of thousands of dollars Na more than the cost of your airplane!! to issue the same licence that Qantas, Virgin, Jet, Tiger airlines operate under, with all the bell's and whistles that are required to operate a boeing 747, because our reg's, that we've worked tirelessly to modernise for the past twenty odd years, at enormous expense to the Australian Taxpayer do not differentiate between a boeing and a tiger moth.
Dont bother complaining, we know you dont have the money to fight us, just fire your staff, sell your aircraft, if you can find someone to buy them, close your hangar doors and go quietly into history, there are lots of real Estate sharks ready and willing to subsidise our retirement if we can just get rid of you little people cluttering up prime real estate, just begging for development.
To some who posted comments on this thread. Hey guys, could it be that you forget your roots?, its easy looking down with your six figure salary from your shiny jet and forget where you came from, or could it be I'm all right Jack?, screw the rest of you little people.
I guess the poor old GA Industry is just too tired to fight, had the s..t kicked out of it for so long its run out of steam. This would never have happened in the US, politics would have prevented it and put these incompetent clowns in their place...where are our pollies??..Barnaby..where are you?..these are Queensland jobs and businesses being destroyed...where is the good senator who held out so much promise?, not just for the airline fraternity but for the little people as well, Where's Mr Catta? Where are our tourism ministers?.its a tourist thing being torn down. Where is the mainstream press?? guess it's not sensational enough for you,so what, a few hundred little people are thrown out of work, rather bash the big fish like Qantas..
Well, I try to be an optomist, maybe just maybe, if there is anyone out there who cares, a few letters, emails, might just might make a difference, or for those of you who have had their businesses and livelihoods destoyed, at least make an effort and put your case to the class action people in Melbourne who are working very hard to mount a case against a endemically corrupt regulator.
Even if that fails, the political embarrassement might just trigger a Royal commission, which is perhaps the only way to bring the corruption in CASA into the public arena and some of those responsible brought to book.
What do you have to lose? they've already taken everything from you.
Then again given his testimony to the Senate commitee ie the 12 mile limit,amongst others, I'm inclined to think he's capable of anything. Its just so totally absurd, it would take someone totally out of their mind to dream it up.
The loonies really are loose in the asylum. Either that or CASA are so desperate for funds and so totally out of touch with the GA industry, or any other industry for that matter that they have finally arrived in La La land.
If you wish to run a business doing tourist scenic flights, Joy flights they called them in my day, and my Dad's day, and my Grandfathers day, hell that was my first job. You need to pay us, (CASA) thousands of dollars, Na ten's of thousands of dollars, Na hundred's of thousands of dollars Na more than the cost of your airplane!! to issue the same licence that Qantas, Virgin, Jet, Tiger airlines operate under, with all the bell's and whistles that are required to operate a boeing 747, because our reg's, that we've worked tirelessly to modernise for the past twenty odd years, at enormous expense to the Australian Taxpayer do not differentiate between a boeing and a tiger moth.
Dont bother complaining, we know you dont have the money to fight us, just fire your staff, sell your aircraft, if you can find someone to buy them, close your hangar doors and go quietly into history, there are lots of real Estate sharks ready and willing to subsidise our retirement if we can just get rid of you little people cluttering up prime real estate, just begging for development.
To some who posted comments on this thread. Hey guys, could it be that you forget your roots?, its easy looking down with your six figure salary from your shiny jet and forget where you came from, or could it be I'm all right Jack?, screw the rest of you little people.
I guess the poor old GA Industry is just too tired to fight, had the s..t kicked out of it for so long its run out of steam. This would never have happened in the US, politics would have prevented it and put these incompetent clowns in their place...where are our pollies??..Barnaby..where are you?..these are Queensland jobs and businesses being destroyed...where is the good senator who held out so much promise?, not just for the airline fraternity but for the little people as well, Where's Mr Catta? Where are our tourism ministers?.its a tourist thing being torn down. Where is the mainstream press?? guess it's not sensational enough for you,so what, a few hundred little people are thrown out of work, rather bash the big fish like Qantas..
Well, I try to be an optomist, maybe just maybe, if there is anyone out there who cares, a few letters, emails, might just might make a difference, or for those of you who have had their businesses and livelihoods destoyed, at least make an effort and put your case to the class action people in Melbourne who are working very hard to mount a case against a endemically corrupt regulator.
Even if that fails, the political embarrassement might just trigger a Royal commission, which is perhaps the only way to bring the corruption in CASA into the public arena and some of those responsible brought to book.
What do you have to lose? they've already taken everything from you.
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Oh dear
Thorny, take the trouble to read my previous post, then take the trouble to read the proposed changes to Part 119 then take the trouble to read the posts from those that say this is a good thing. Have a good read. You might save yourself a bit of angst.
http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dl...A::pc=PARTS119
http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dl...A::pc=PARTS119