Are we going to end up like the UK??
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Are we going to end up like the UK??
Morning Crew,
Yesterday I received an email/newsletter from PATS, the mob that holds courses that aid candidates through the physc testing most airlines use. It has also got me thinking.
In the email they claim that more and more big airlines are going to start sourcing applicants from these streams (cadets) rather than traditional experienced pilots.
Looking at my crystal ball I think I can see employment streams for airlines possibly taking most of their applicants through this method but am curious about opinions from those in the know.
It seems bean counters have more pull than people in flight crew recruitment these days and to the layman management other benefits include, candidates pay for their own training and endorsements (and then some) aswel as employees staying longer because they are tied to bonds, followed by declining T&C's etc etc
In time to come I see that kiddies leaving school will look at their education possibilities and spend that kind of money on a law degree where they can walk into a $120k per year first job. Wouldnt this eventually cause a shortage of pilots forcing airlines to pay a premium to keep its crews??
looking forward to all your theories,
Rocket
Yesterday I received an email/newsletter from PATS, the mob that holds courses that aid candidates through the physc testing most airlines use. It has also got me thinking.
In the email they claim that more and more big airlines are going to start sourcing applicants from these streams (cadets) rather than traditional experienced pilots.
Looking at my crystal ball I think I can see employment streams for airlines possibly taking most of their applicants through this method but am curious about opinions from those in the know.
It seems bean counters have more pull than people in flight crew recruitment these days and to the layman management other benefits include, candidates pay for their own training and endorsements (and then some) aswel as employees staying longer because they are tied to bonds, followed by declining T&C's etc etc
In time to come I see that kiddies leaving school will look at their education possibilities and spend that kind of money on a law degree where they can walk into a $120k per year first job. Wouldnt this eventually cause a shortage of pilots forcing airlines to pay a premium to keep its crews??
looking forward to all your theories,
Rocket
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TAA and Qantas tried cadets in the sixties and they gave it away after one or two intakes, but bean counters have been to uni where they have been taught by cloistered dills, with no common sense, all about saving money.
They all think they know best and from their lofty heights make complicated calculations that come out with something precise, like 20.3456 people and try to apply it to reality.
What twenty adults and a kid?... of course the practical people on the floor know that job needs twenty two people minimum with no cockups and twenty three to be sure.
For decades the old and bolds taught the student as he went each rung up the ladder, now some lecturer with no practical experience lectures and a peice of paper announces the student is full bottle... Haaaa!
They all think they know best and from their lofty heights make complicated calculations that come out with something precise, like 20.3456 people and try to apply it to reality.
What twenty adults and a kid?... of course the practical people on the floor know that job needs twenty two people minimum with no cockups and twenty three to be sure.
For decades the old and bolds taught the student as he went each rung up the ladder, now some lecturer with no practical experience lectures and a peice of paper announces the student is full bottle... Haaaa!
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What i meant to say was that you will possibly receive the usual "they took our jobs" "cadets are prostituting the industry" and lame remarks like "bend over for the pineapple" 
I too, have heard the mentioned off PATS when i was going for selection. They are a business and can sell the sizzle ...
I too, have heard the mentioned off PATS when i was going for selection. They are a business and can sell the sizzle ...
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rocket66, I think you have answered your own question. For me, the answer is yes, the cadet streams will be the most common form of airline recruitment. It must be remembered that very few countries have a large active GA sector from where recruitment to airlines can come from so for a lot of places a cadet scheme makes a lot of sense.
A large percentage of Australian pilots will disagree. I suggest they are looking at their own experience and failing to account for the changes that have and are still taking place in the industry.
The most obvious change, even in Australia, is there is a massive increase in the number of airline pilots required as compared to the pre-deregulation days. This at a time when being an airline pilot is no longer seen as a desirable job which will come under further threat as T & Cs' are continually reduced.
The huge expansion of airlines in Asia will see a continuing demand for pilots that outstrips the national capacity to fill. They are already looking to the US, Europe and a lesser extent, Australia, to fill the gap. That will increase. Just have a look at the ads for flight crew by some of the contract air crew suppliers or the jobs board sites. This will impact on the number of pilots in the employment pool.
There are, of course, the usual arguments about specific training for airline operations versus the experience gained through GA but raising them is like rattling the cage of a savage dog. It gets an expected reaction.
It is sometimes useful to look at some of the non-DG&P forums to see how the cadet schemes are working overseas. It is also illuminating to read the responses from captains who actually have the experience of working with cadets (mostly very positive) rather than the Australian reaction which is mostly just opinion based on bias rather than experience.
A large percentage of Australian pilots will disagree. I suggest they are looking at their own experience and failing to account for the changes that have and are still taking place in the industry.
The most obvious change, even in Australia, is there is a massive increase in the number of airline pilots required as compared to the pre-deregulation days. This at a time when being an airline pilot is no longer seen as a desirable job which will come under further threat as T & Cs' are continually reduced.
The huge expansion of airlines in Asia will see a continuing demand for pilots that outstrips the national capacity to fill. They are already looking to the US, Europe and a lesser extent, Australia, to fill the gap. That will increase. Just have a look at the ads for flight crew by some of the contract air crew suppliers or the jobs board sites. This will impact on the number of pilots in the employment pool.
There are, of course, the usual arguments about specific training for airline operations versus the experience gained through GA but raising them is like rattling the cage of a savage dog. It gets an expected reaction.
It is sometimes useful to look at some of the non-DG&P forums to see how the cadet schemes are working overseas. It is also illuminating to read the responses from captains who actually have the experience of working with cadets (mostly very positive) rather than the Australian reaction which is mostly just opinion based on bias rather than experience.
Mmmm... Lost me with the "sizzle" I'm afraid?
What I think rocket66 is trying to say is that we may very well end up with a greater shortage of pilots in the future than what the airlines are spinning today.
Quite ironic when you consider the BS and creative accounting of the short-sighted, bonus driven, corporate memory deprived D!ckhe@ds that are steering airline pilot recruitment down this path. The employment of Cadets is not the issue. The employment of Cadets, mired in debt and trapped in an ever decreasing standard of living, is.
Keep going boys, by the time this all pans out, the profession of pilot will be about as popular as that of a Railway station Toilet Attendant! Mind you, by the time it starts to sink in, the architechs of this folly will be long gone, and the imbeciles that allowed it to happen will be left looking at each other and wondering what the hell went wrong!
What I think rocket66 is trying to say is that we may very well end up with a greater shortage of pilots in the future than what the airlines are spinning today.
Quite ironic when you consider the BS and creative accounting of the short-sighted, bonus driven, corporate memory deprived D!ckhe@ds that are steering airline pilot recruitment down this path. The employment of Cadets is not the issue. The employment of Cadets, mired in debt and trapped in an ever decreasing standard of living, is.
Keep going boys, by the time this all pans out, the profession of pilot will be about as popular as that of a Railway station Toilet Attendant! Mind you, by the time it starts to sink in, the architechs of this folly will be long gone, and the imbeciles that allowed it to happen will be left looking at each other and wondering what the hell went wrong!
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please, not another anti cadet thread lol
Either we can go the way of the US which has a similarly robust GA sector. The US currently has an oversupply of pilots and cadets don’t exist because of the 1500 hour rule.
Or we can go the way of the UK where there is an anaemic GA sector but still there is currently an oversupply of pilots because of the prevalence of integrated courses (some of which actually take place in the US because its cheaper there.)
The integrated courses have started to move in and it is now up to the Senate to decide the future direction of aviation training. Let’s hope they do so wisely as the consequences will be far reaching.
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In time to come I see that kiddies leaving school will look at their education possibilities and spend that kind of money on a law degree where they can walk into a $120k per year first job
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+1 for Krusty's post.
Hit the nail on the head.
Also on the note of salaries, how often do you see a porsche with a wanky pilot number plate on those million dollar properties? Chances are its a ute with "Davo's *insert trade here*".
Hit the nail on the head.
Also on the note of salaries, how often do you see a porsche with a wanky pilot number plate on those million dollar properties? Chances are its a ute with "Davo's *insert trade here*".
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Crusty that is exactly what I'm trying to say. In the longer term I think declining T&C's will drive new pilots away from aviation to other higher paying, easier careers. This will cause T&C's to go up and attract new pilots, and around and around we go.
Perhaps we also need unions with some clout, and some government rulings which entice companies to roll out EBA's in a timely and efective manner. In my experience, if the unions and companies cannot agree the EBA's get dragged out so before long your paying your mortgage based on "frozen" wage levels from 2 years proir.
The inquiry will hopefully shed some much needed light on the subject in time to come I just hope the pollies find a correct solution after gathering information and TALKING TO PEOPLE WITHIN THE INDUSTRY!!!
Perhaps cadets should be seen as an investment rather than a cost to the company. Without pilots airlines would have a lot of expensive A/C sitting idle on the ramps "costing" them even more money. I'm sure the bean counters however have a better idea !!!
Perhaps we also need unions with some clout, and some government rulings which entice companies to roll out EBA's in a timely and efective manner. In my experience, if the unions and companies cannot agree the EBA's get dragged out so before long your paying your mortgage based on "frozen" wage levels from 2 years proir.
The inquiry will hopefully shed some much needed light on the subject in time to come I just hope the pollies find a correct solution after gathering information and TALKING TO PEOPLE WITHIN THE INDUSTRY!!!
Perhaps cadets should be seen as an investment rather than a cost to the company. Without pilots airlines would have a lot of expensive A/C sitting idle on the ramps "costing" them even more money. I'm sure the bean counters however have a better idea !!!
I hear ya' rocket', but please, it's Krusty with a (K)! 
One thing though, no Cadetship, in this country at least, is seen by the respective employer as a cost, as it is all bourne by the candidate. Also, because of this, I feel it's impossible for them to lay claim to an investment either.
If the reverse were true, Cadetships in Australia would disappear overnight!
One thing though, no Cadetship, in this country at least, is seen by the respective employer as a cost, as it is all bourne by the candidate. Also, because of this, I feel it's impossible for them to lay claim to an investment either.
If the reverse were true, Cadetships in Australia would disappear overnight!
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Well then again Krusty
because all costs are bourne by the candidate (eventually) why pay em **** money for doing the same job?? They still have to pass the same cyclics etc etc.
Damn lucky we all love to fly as much as we do, more money in stamp collecting these days
because all costs are bourne by the candidate (eventually) why pay em **** money for doing the same job?? They still have to pass the same cyclics etc etc. Damn lucky we all love to fly as much as we do, more money in stamp collecting these days
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Jober Whatever does eventuate, just remember "these times too, will pass..."
No they wont, we are locked into a Burearocratic dependency on seeking the lowest common denominator, just 5 years behind the "old dart" but catching quickly.
No winge just a wake up call
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']WAKE UP TIME[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When the shearing sheds are silent and the stock camps fallen quiet[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When the gidgee coals no longer glow across the outback night[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And the bush is forced to hang a sign, '. gone broke and won't be back'[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And spirits fear to find a way beyond the beaten track[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When harvesters stand derelict upon the wind swept plains[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And brave hearts pin their hopes no more on chance of loving rains[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When a hundred outback settlements are ghost towns overnight[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When we've lost the drive and heart we had to once more see us right[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When 'Pioneer' means a stereo and 'Digger' some backhoe[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And the 'Outback' is behind the house.. there's nowhere else to go[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And 'Anzac' is a biscuit brand and probably foreign owned[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And education really means brainwashed and neatly cloned[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When you have to bake a loaf of bread to make a decent crust[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And our heritage once enshrined in gold is crumbling to dust[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And old folk pay their camping fees on land for which they fought[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And fishing is a great escape; this is until you're caught[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When you see our kids with yankee caps and resentment in their eyes[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And the soaring crime and hopeless hearts is no longer a surprise[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When the name of RM Williams is a yuppie clothing brand[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And not a product of our heritage that grew off the land[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When offering a hand makes people think you'll amputate[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And two dogs meeting in the street is what you call a 'Mate'[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When 'Political Correctness' has replaced all common sense[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When you're forced to see it their way, there's no sitting on the fence[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Yes one day you might find yourself an outcast in this land[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Perhaps your heart will tell you then, ' I should have made a stand'[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Just go and ask the farmers that should remove all doubt[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Then join the swelling ranks who say, ' don't sell Australia out'[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Courtesy of Craig Leggett (Ex SAS & 1 RAR)[/FONT]
No they wont, we are locked into a Burearocratic dependency on seeking the lowest common denominator, just 5 years behind the "old dart" but catching quickly.
No winge just a wake up call
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']WAKE UP TIME[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When the shearing sheds are silent and the stock camps fallen quiet[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When the gidgee coals no longer glow across the outback night[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And the bush is forced to hang a sign, '. gone broke and won't be back'[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And spirits fear to find a way beyond the beaten track[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When harvesters stand derelict upon the wind swept plains[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And brave hearts pin their hopes no more on chance of loving rains[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When a hundred outback settlements are ghost towns overnight[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When we've lost the drive and heart we had to once more see us right[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When 'Pioneer' means a stereo and 'Digger' some backhoe[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And the 'Outback' is behind the house.. there's nowhere else to go[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And 'Anzac' is a biscuit brand and probably foreign owned[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And education really means brainwashed and neatly cloned[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When you have to bake a loaf of bread to make a decent crust[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And our heritage once enshrined in gold is crumbling to dust[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And old folk pay their camping fees on land for which they fought[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And fishing is a great escape; this is until you're caught[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When you see our kids with yankee caps and resentment in their eyes[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And the soaring crime and hopeless hearts is no longer a surprise[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When the name of RM Williams is a yuppie clothing brand[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And not a product of our heritage that grew off the land[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When offering a hand makes people think you'll amputate[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']And two dogs meeting in the street is what you call a 'Mate'[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When 'Political Correctness' has replaced all common sense[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']When you're forced to see it their way, there's no sitting on the fence[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Yes one day you might find yourself an outcast in this land[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Perhaps your heart will tell you then, ' I should have made a stand'[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Just go and ask the farmers that should remove all doubt[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Then join the swelling ranks who say, ' don't sell Australia out'[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Courtesy of Craig Leggett (Ex SAS & 1 RAR)[/FONT]
Last edited by T28D; 8th Jan 2011 at 04:29.
