It was all better back then...

[Horatio Leafblower]

Euphemisms and other horny subjects

Old Fella I used to play a beautiful 4-valve Boosey & Hawkes "Imperial" Euphemism... *sigh*... I now own a nice little "Sovreign" Bb Cornet but it's a challenge for my Eupho/trombone Lubra-lips

[601]

I watched him and he couldn't have made the runway 1/2 way down his final approach.

From what I remember, we had to do master glide approaches before we could do powered approaches.

[Tee Emm]

From what I remember, we had to do master glide approaches before we could do powered approaches.

That's true. Never did powered approaches in the Tiger Moth until after first solo. Great judgement practice. Even then, you had to go downwind a little longer, turn base. Cut the throttle on completion of turn to base and set up a 58 knots glide. Then because of the slight undershoot you applied a trickle of power at 300 ft and motored in from there. That was called a powered approach. The trickle of power was just enough to muffle the sound of the wind through the wires...

[Tee Emm]

"Beano" and "Dandy" comics

Don't forget Flight Lieutenant Rockfist Rogan, RAF Spitfire pilot, featured in the Champion comic during the war or was it the Hotspur? After reading that comic at age 8 in 1940 in England, my burning ambition was to be a real Flight Lieutenant and fly a Spitfire.

[Peter Fanelli]

....when yoof were seen and not heard so much.

[osmosis]

Those who have spent any time with an ag pilot, particularly a crusty old bastard, early on in their flying will gain benefit. A steep learning curve is re-entered as he learns a few new facts of life; not everyone's cup of tea though. Engine management is one but the biggest new experience must surely be airframe handling on or near the ground in windy conditions. Cross-winds and tail-winds have to be managed correctly on one-way strips if you're in an a/c with a little wheel on the back and particularly a fully loaded one. There is much to be learned for the new pilot. Not been to New Guinea but I imagine those blokes had to LAND at MTOW in far worse conditions than one way ag strips here.

I suspect sixtiesrelic is right in saying the students are required to learn way too much irrelevant material and their heads are likely to be swimming.

Kite flying. Something we all did as kids and it cost nothing, we made our own. My longest retained memory is one of me going to bed as a child feeling bad because President Kennedy had been shot and was gravely ill. A swingsaw. Dad had a swingsaw and used it regularly both for cutting logs and as a sawbench; us kids stacked the wood as it came off the bench. Those blades weighed a ton to a small kid. Had an old Chev Blitz as a super spreader with chain drive off the rear wheel. The one and only bought cereal we had was Cornflakes and we used to spend hours making and playing with those toys found inside the packets. The packets themselves were highly prized as they soon were cut up into various shapes and used all the time as gaskets in all sorts of engines.

[tinpis]

Flying a plane with a new fangled cockpit heater.

[frigatebird]

Flying a Navajo at 17 thou to catch the tailwinds on a night freight run without one.. (no, that wasn't better, if you got pneumonia..)

[Checkboard]

I watched him and he couldn't have made the runway 1/2 way down his final approach.

So what?

I mean - I know large circuits at training aerodromes are a perennial whinge, but show me the regulation that says you have to be able to glide to a runway at every point of your flight from A to B, or in the circuit or anywhere else.

[Skynews]

I mean - I know large circuits at training aerodromes are a perennial whinge, but show me the regulation that says you have to be able to glide to a runway at every point of your flight from A to B, or in the circuit or anywhere else.

Exactly.

I used to do circuits that you could glide to the field from mid downwind, but What about from take - off until the downwind point that you will make it from?
What about when you leave the circuit for the training area or further?
Most if not all light aircraft rely on powered approaches today. That means they rely on power! if the have a failure post a position were they can glide to the field, what then?

Surely its better to teach some one to be aware of their options and how to react then simply turn towards a runway they well not make?

I'm all for smallish circuits, more take-offs and landings is another good reason, but just to be able to "maybe" glide back with a failure, what frog****.

[Chimbu chuckles]

You don't think there is value in ingraining skills that might save your life if the engine fails cross country and your only option is a relatively small piece of open ground, section of straight dirt track etc?

And just because you cant make the runway straight after takeoff you shouldn't have to be able to from base or final?

Well there is a standard that has changed in the last 25 years for starters.

A 172 is not a 737 and teaching people to fly them as if they are is a mistake.

[Jober.as.a.Sudge]

Originally Posted by Checkboard

So what?

then...

Originally Posted by Checkboard

...show me the regulation that says you have to be able to glide to a runway...

That's some sort of "head-in-the-sand" attitude there Checkboard!!!

Of course there's no regulation that states you must remain within gliding distance of a runway en-route point A to point B -what a ridiculous, nonsensical suggestion!!!
The point of the discussion is that it is good basic Airmanship to remain within gliding distance of the runway when operating within an airport environment (ie: the circuit), particularly when operating a single-engine aircraft, keeping in mind the "where will I go if it stops" scenario.

When operating within a busy airport environment, I think of flying a tight, efficient circuit as common courtesy, coupled with Airmanship (again). That means that if I am using the airspace and runway environment efficiently, my actions do not force a change of (approach) plan on others, the "system" works appropriately and for everyone.

Then there is the small matter of energy management to be considered. Why would you not use the energy inherent in your aircraft to aid and assist your approach path??? I remember one discussion here a year or 2 ago from a new CPL with a 1st job on a C207 (personally I think they're a pig, but that's a discussion for another time). In his "vast" experience of the 207 he decided the best way to land them was to set up on a loooong final, then drag it onto the runway with power. All the way in on the back of the L/D curve with it balls to the wall No thought there for any changes of condition that may require additional power. No energy left to do anything but stall if it went even slightly pear-shaped. And all this from a 747-size circuit.

Those that fly these enormous, inefficient circuits (God alone knows what they're thinking) would truly struggle to fly in places where terrain severely restricts -and in some cases modifies the shape of- the circuit pattern. A case in point from my own experience is NZMF (Milford Sound) where the "circuit" for RWY29 starts abeam Stirling Falls, around 4NM from the RWY11 threshold, and roughly on the extended centreline of that RWY. You need to be not above 1,000' at that point. You then follow the wall of mountains until roughly ABM the airport, where the circuit widens out a little -but watch for aircraft joining from the ADA RP/Arthur Valley -they'll be at your level! Then passing ABM the 29 threshold (your touch-down point) your path is again restricted by the Sheerdown mountains. Maintain your level, staying as close as you can to the rock-face until you're in the wider area formed by the confluence of the Cleddau and Tutoko Valleys. That's where you start your turn onto "finals" and descent from 1,000' to 500'. Maintain that 500' until established on the RWY centreline. Then you'll really start using your "energy management" techniques. Initially, you'll be struggling to get her down: it'll look like you're going to massively overshoot the threshold. But as you get in towards the Cleddau River, you'll find massive sink awful sudden making it look like a tree-top or river-bed arrival is likely. Just add a trickle of power to modify your descent rate -the sink will disappear again as you cross the river, then all you'll have to contend with is the howling x-wind from the Arthur Valley. Get that about right, you'll touchdown pretty much on the numbers, with little enough remaining energy that you should be able to turn off into the parking area without use of brakes, or at best only very light use there-of.

And all of this is in the midst of 30+ other aircraft, all doing the same thing...

If you're interested, the VFG plates are available here. Personally I've operated into NZMF from when I was a student -I worked in there in another capacity at the time. My NZMF Rating (required at the time) arrived in the same post as my PPL. Apparently the rating committee were of the opinion that they couldn't keep me out as an SPL, so why would they even bother trying as a PPL/CPL. I would surely like to see some of these people (I hesitate to call them pilots) that fly these enormous circuits attempt to operate in here. I'm sure some of the old PNG hands could illustrate my points with many examples of their own.

When I was a student pilot, glide-approach proficiency was mandatory pre-solo -in point of fact, the fact that you were getting glide-approach training was the prime indicator of your impending 1st solo.

Worth thinking about I reckon.

[Pinky the pilot]

Climbing up onto the wing root of one of the Maralinga Mustangs to look into the cockpit just a few days after it arrived at Parafield, and not being told off by anyone for doing so. Admittedly I did first ask permission from someone nearby. Whether or not that person was really able to give said permission I knew not.

Fueling/loading/topping up the oil?

That is what natives are for surely?

They were reasonably good at it as well, were'nt they Chuck? Came in handy for that, especially as on occasion one was leaning up against something trying to light up a calming cigarette with trembling fingers after just having scared the bejaysus out of oneself on the landing or prior take off out of some strip carved out of the side of a mountain, or in between some mountains, etc etc.

Some Talair pilot once told me that if you did'nt scare yourself s***less at least once a week you were'nt working hard enough! Maybe he was joking but..

[Old Fella]

Highland flying

I remember the first time I saw a Shorts Skyvan. It was in Goroka and one of the local engineering guys said words to the effect: "Him a Skyvan, not very big on pretty, but pretty big on strong" . Some of the best flying I was ever involved in was in New Guinea during the 1970's. At one time being based in the old Ansett Annexe in Madang and flying into Mendi in a C130A with food for the locals after their yam crops failed. It was another of the worthwhile humanitarian efforts we got involved in.

[das Uber Soldat]

Soldat!!!

"He was NOT ready for the test I took back in the olden days.
And by what you describe he wasn't ready for the test of today either"

EXACTLY! He wasn't anywhere near ready YET his instructors said he WAS.
No shortage of crappy instructors around, you'll get no argument from me in regards to that. However, it literally has no bearing whatsoever on the difficulty of obtaining a CPL today compared to yesterday. Simply, his instructor made a mistake. What year exactly did instructors stop being perfect? 1973?

Perhaps you don't have ten thumbs on ya hands when you are under pressure of taking on something new.... most of the rest of us think we have.

He was trying to do all the bulldust he'd been taught thus the seventeen minutes taxi time.
Having trained literally hundreds of CPL candidates, I can assure you he wasn't prepared correctly. Time management and commercial considerations play a central role in CPL training today, yet there is no question that a properly trained student can complete all the required items whilst getting away in good time.

All the mistakes should have been spotted but perhaps makin' bucks is the primary role of the school and when the testee fails they can make lots more getting them up to speed.
Again, this all comes down to what sounds like a crappy instructor. Not a reduction in standards from the times you speak of. The standard of instructors is altogether a different argument and not relevant to the one we are having now.

I have been trying to get across that today's pilot's have a heap more to learn and it's in virtually the same number of hours, so they aren't going to be as good in some areas.
Grammar aside, 150 hours is well sufficient for a student to meet the minimum requirements of the CPL provided they are trained properly. That said yes, logically, if they need to learn more things in the same amount of flight time then it stands to reason that they would not be as proficient in certain areas. That opens up a seperate argument as to the content of the syllabus and if everything inside necessarily needs to be inside. Different argument.

The cropduster taught him a lot about flying and engine handling that the lads of today don't know, because they are only a few hours more experienced than their students
Yet some of the worst instructors I know have 10,000 hours, and many of the best I have ever worked with have 750. Experience and ability to impart said experience in a tangible way are not always in accompaniment. You're lucky your mate met a good ag pilot. Regardless, i'd have a wild guess that your mate didn't exactly learn alot about compliance with the regulations if taking lessons of an aggy

I see you're from Sydney... Hmmm that's interesting... so was he.
And YES "Im probably just suffering from chronic lack of humor "
True, being from sydney, i'm automatically a bad pilot, and probably an idiot. Oo, even better. I instructed at a sausage factory!!

The argument that pilots were better in the old days doesn't hold up to close inspection. Sorry.

[sixtiesrelic]

Dear oh Dear... that chip must be heavy.

[das Uber Soldat]

Yeh ok mate, I've got a chip on my shoulder because I can comfortably disprove your flawed theory.

Ad hominem strikes again. I'll be waiting any time you decide you want to debate the issue itself.

[kingRB]

Soldat cheers for taking the time to respond to his points, saved me the trouble

Fully agree with what you have said.

Relic, I appreciate you came across a pilot with what sounds like average skills for a low experience PPL, claiming to be at a CPL standard, but, you have not said anything so far that proves CPL candidates a few decades ago are any better than todays.

Thats why I asked if there is any major differences in the syllabus of old or new... Its the only way to objectively see if there is anything that would make the CPL candidates of old more skilled than todays... Opinions aside.

[Checkboard]

Of course there's no regulation that states you must remain within gliding distance of a runway en-route point A to point B -what a ridiculous, nonsensical suggestion!!!

Hyperbole, a form of rhetorical device used in intelligent debate. You might want to look it up.

[sixtiesrelic]

Soldier, you and I will never see eye to eye.

Old Fella, we used to talk on the tarmac when I came over to admire that sexy 310 when you’d fly it over the Bismark to RAB with KWA the only bit of coral to settle on if you lost one.
I was next door to you operatin’ war surplice equipment with Drama ‘n Trembles when livin’ in the capital.
We dined upstairs in the evenings during the gammon famine too, when you came over to paradise.