CTC wheels up ldg
If your information is correct, I'm surprised it hasn't happened before with the way they fly around with the gear warning blaring away while operatiing single engine. You can hear it whenever they make a radio call. Even though it makes one hell of a racket, there is the risk that sooner or later someone is going to become desensitised to it and ignore it at a critical time.
There is the old saying, "There's those who have, and those who are yet to do it". With the correct training and procedures we should all remain in the latter category, however there is alway the chance of some distraction/change of normal procedure that catches pilots out. I've seen it happen.
Lets hope your info is incorrect.
There is the old saying, "There's those who have, and those who are yet to do it". With the correct training and procedures we should all remain in the latter category, however there is alway the chance of some distraction/change of normal procedure that catches pilots out. I've seen it happen.
Lets hope your info is incorrect.
Last edited by 27/09; 7th Nov 2010 at 19:02.
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Definately a light twin made a wheels up landing at HN.
2 sets of prop strike marks, not very wide apart and subsequent skid marks on RWY18L.
Notam issued for blocked runway.
Tower very cagey when enquiries made
S2K
2 sets of prop strike marks, not very wide apart and subsequent skid marks on RWY18L.
Notam issued for blocked runway.
Tower very cagey when enquiries made
S2K
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Probably taught to fly by instructors who teach undercarriage down and locked for fixed gear aircraft as part of before landing checks just in case that one day they will fly a retractable gear aircraft. Every flying school seems to teach the same drill downwind BUMMMF etc Brakes, Undercarriage, Mixtures, Master, Mags etc etc. Not a wise move to teach students cockpit drills that don't make sense for the aircraft type.
A37575
It's not what's in the the drill that is the problem, it's how it's used.
I prefer the one drill that covers most light aircraft, fixed or retract.
When you get to the "Undercarriage" part of the drill it should be "Not required" for fixed gear and "Down and locked" for a retract, not the same response for both situations. That way pilots are trained to think (hopefully) a bit more about what they are doing.
I do see where you're coming from however if you do it the way you suggest there is still the risk that a pilot newly converted onto a retract will, in the heat of the moment, use the "old" drill and forget the "undercarrige" check entirely.
In other words either way can be said to be better or worse than the other.
TooLowTooFast
I would think a gear failure which is what your'e suggesting would have resulted in a rather more "exciting" outcome. It would be unusual for all three gear to collapse evenly, therefore there would have been quite different runway marks from those that have been mentioned.
It's not what's in the the drill that is the problem, it's how it's used.
I prefer the one drill that covers most light aircraft, fixed or retract.
When you get to the "Undercarriage" part of the drill it should be "Not required" for fixed gear and "Down and locked" for a retract, not the same response for both situations. That way pilots are trained to think (hopefully) a bit more about what they are doing.
I do see where you're coming from however if you do it the way you suggest there is still the risk that a pilot newly converted onto a retract will, in the heat of the moment, use the "old" drill and forget the "undercarrige" check entirely.
In other words either way can be said to be better or worse than the other.
TooLowTooFast
I would think a gear failure which is what your'e suggesting would have resulted in a rather more "exciting" outcome. It would be unusual for all three gear to collapse evenly, therefore there would have been quite different runway marks from those that have been mentioned.
Being congenitally stupid, I always say "Undercarriage welded down" or "Undercarriage selected down, (pause with hand on switch until Three Greens), then three greens, undercarriage down". I figure that way I am least likely to forget to lower the gear, or also to rush to the next item and forget the three greens part of the check.
I do the same with propeller and mixture and primer parts of the T/O check even when one or more of them is missing. I simply acknowledge that they aren't there. Same with landing checks.
I do the same with propeller and mixture and primer parts of the T/O check even when one or more of them is missing. I simply acknowledge that they aren't there. Same with landing checks.
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I once went to a talk given by a psycologist from Farnborough who had been involved in accident investigation. He said he often found that pilots had read the checklist, saying "gear down, three greens' but had not actually done it. They then landed wheels up.
One captain said after landing "there's something wrong with the brakes"
I found that it was prudent to have an extra trigger for lowering the gear that was indpendent of the checklist. just in case.
It's simple. When you see a runway in front of you, check wheels. Erery time. The it becomes a habbit.
One captain said after landing "there's something wrong with the brakes"
I found that it was prudent to have an extra trigger for lowering the gear that was indpendent of the checklist. just in case.
It's simple. When you see a runway in front of you, check wheels. Erery time. The it becomes a habbit.
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I find if as I come back through 140kts I punch the gear down to help bring the aircraft back to a safe speed to drop some flap. Obviously different for different planes and I dont do circuits where I imagine you would only be loitering around down slow but it works for me.
Try flying a surveyor where you have to remember to put te circuit breaker as well tho!! Basically it all comes down to making you have a rhythm that you get into where you are doing everything in the exactly the same order and at exactly the same stage of flight every time. They begin to teach that when you learn at the aeroclub with cockpit drills, you just need to fine tune them to your aircraft and the type of flying u are doing.
Try flying a surveyor where you have to remember to put te circuit breaker as well tho!! Basically it all comes down to making you have a rhythm that you get into where you are doing everything in the exactly the same order and at exactly the same stage of flight every time. They begin to teach that when you learn at the aeroclub with cockpit drills, you just need to fine tune them to your aircraft and the type of flying u are doing.
Maybe a youtube video of an amphibian wheels down landing could be used as a learning tool. Sure different landing surface but as a reminder of all checks required rather than the false security of a neumonic.
POB Aircraft inadvertently landed with its landing gear up after the crew failed to select gear down during the approach. Asymmetric circuits were being conducted at the time, which results in the gear warning sounding throughout the simulation.
Asymmetric circuits were being conducted at the time, which results in the gear warning sounding throughout the simulation.
Would a slightly higher "Zero thrust" setting stop the gear warning sounding?
A recent CTC press release stated that the DA42 is considered internationally to be the best airline pilot training aircraft in the world. Really?
Seems to me there is a flaw with the mighty Twin Star.
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I remember when I was doing some CPL training in the UK a brand new Piper Arrow arrived on the flight line. Everyone was very keen to get their hands on it, only problem was it had a very loud and annoying gear horn that sounded throughout all stalling exercises. Engineering scratched their heads for a few days to try and turn the volume down, instead they came up with a great idea 'lets just disconnect the siren!!'. This was done and on the very next flight a beautiful gear up landing was made New engine and a bit of structural work was then required on our nice new 10 day old arrow
New engine and a bit of structural work was then required on our nice new 10 day old arrow
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Nice story AH.
This is a clear cut case of desensitizing, that siren is something that perhaps could do with a tweak in the twin star.
Other light twins have a siren that will only sound with a combination of events, that is 'gear up' and 'less than 10-15" MP'. So the siren will go off on a clean stall which is annoying in a trainer, especially if it finds itself stalling regularly. It is however, absolutely essential for reminding you that something might be very wrong on very short final.
That said, i must echo aileron_69's sentiments.
This is a clear cut case of desensitizing, that siren is something that perhaps could do with a tweak in the twin star.
Other light twins have a siren that will only sound with a combination of events, that is 'gear up' and 'less than 10-15" MP'. So the siren will go off on a clean stall which is annoying in a trainer, especially if it finds itself stalling regularly. It is however, absolutely essential for reminding you that something might be very wrong on very short final.
That said, i must echo aileron_69's sentiments.
it all comes down to making you have a rhythm that you get into where you are doing everything in the exactly the same order and at exactly the same stage of flight every time.
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All retractable aircraft (single and twin) should have the horn/buzzer. Being able to cancel it in certain configuarations should be a given (ie - low power, clean flap, gear retracted, on descent) but once there is flap out beyond the first stage (ie landing flap but gear still up) the horn shouldn't be able to be cancelled.
I don't think the twinstar has the 2-stage cancel ability - it just blares ALL the time - as soon as one power lever is retracted.
And you can't do a 'zero thrust' position, as it's only a single lever control on the fadec engine.
I don't think the twinstar has the 2-stage cancel ability - it just blares ALL the time - as soon as one power lever is retracted.
And you can't do a 'zero thrust' position, as it's only a single lever control on the fadec engine.
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And the warning horn is (apparently) an identical sound to the engine failure warning horn on a Hughes 500...as the pilot of an H500 on a test flight told me having heard (and reacted
!) to the sound of a DA42 simulating!! Apparently required a change of shorts!!
!) to the sound of a DA42 simulating!! Apparently required a change of shorts!!
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And you can't do a 'zero thrust' position, as it's only a single lever control on the fadec engine.
I wonder why they don't have a horn mute ability. A twin engine training aircraft is of course going to spend half its life doing assymetric simulations. The Dash 8 system is nice an simple, horn mutable with one power lever at or near flight idle, and flaps less than 15 degrees. Can't be that hard can it? Diamond spent enough time making the thing look ugly...