That first job up north
Thread Starter
That first job up north
Just looking for any comments people have on the conditions that newbies subject themselves to in the annual pilgrimage up north (Australia) in the search for their first job with a fresh CPL.
In my opinion, the circumstances which they find themselves in when searching for their first job are not far short of degrading. Other posters on this forum often offer advice to pack the car and head up north in the search for that first job, and work at a local service station or woolworths supermarket while frequently visiting the operators of clapped out and arguably unsafe Cessna 210s begging the chief pilots to let them fly them for less than a hungry jacks employee gets paid to flip burgers. Some end up being lucky enough to get a job after a month or two, so they can finally be treated like dirt and paid virtually nothing to fly an aircraft which should no longer be in service, while living in accommodation which is close to the worst living conditions you will find in Australia. Some even have stories about sleeping in the back of their car while up north.
I fail to understand how anyone can come back from this experience and justify it by saying “you will look back in this and appreciate them as the best experiences of your aviation career, where you made some of the best life long mates”. While you may make some life long friends and have pretty interesting stories to tell in years to come, that still doesn’t justify why the industry operates like this.
Flying is a skill which people spend many thousands of dollars on by the time they have their CPL, MECIR, ATPLs and whatever else they add to the list. Why is it that such skilled people are content with degrading themselves to the conditions that I have described earlier? Why is it that chief pilots in these charter companies don’t even have the decency to have a look at a resume or take a phone call from someone wanting a job? You actually need to be there begging for a job for months on end, to sometimes come home with nothing. This sounds like what happens on farming properties where unskilled workers go knocking on doors and beg farmers for some manual labour work on their farms.
In general pilots are respected as looked upon as highly as any other jobs out there…dentists, doctors, architects, psychologists, accountants…while people starting out in all these jobs have to start on lower wages than the seniors they still don’t have to live in a hovel in the middle of nowhere and beg for a job from someone that refuses to accept a resume or phone call.
Any thoughts on why aviation is the one industry where starting out in the profession is so degrading?
In my opinion, the circumstances which they find themselves in when searching for their first job are not far short of degrading. Other posters on this forum often offer advice to pack the car and head up north in the search for that first job, and work at a local service station or woolworths supermarket while frequently visiting the operators of clapped out and arguably unsafe Cessna 210s begging the chief pilots to let them fly them for less than a hungry jacks employee gets paid to flip burgers. Some end up being lucky enough to get a job after a month or two, so they can finally be treated like dirt and paid virtually nothing to fly an aircraft which should no longer be in service, while living in accommodation which is close to the worst living conditions you will find in Australia. Some even have stories about sleeping in the back of their car while up north.
I fail to understand how anyone can come back from this experience and justify it by saying “you will look back in this and appreciate them as the best experiences of your aviation career, where you made some of the best life long mates”. While you may make some life long friends and have pretty interesting stories to tell in years to come, that still doesn’t justify why the industry operates like this.
Flying is a skill which people spend many thousands of dollars on by the time they have their CPL, MECIR, ATPLs and whatever else they add to the list. Why is it that such skilled people are content with degrading themselves to the conditions that I have described earlier? Why is it that chief pilots in these charter companies don’t even have the decency to have a look at a resume or take a phone call from someone wanting a job? You actually need to be there begging for a job for months on end, to sometimes come home with nothing. This sounds like what happens on farming properties where unskilled workers go knocking on doors and beg farmers for some manual labour work on their farms.
In general pilots are respected as looked upon as highly as any other jobs out there…dentists, doctors, architects, psychologists, accountants…while people starting out in all these jobs have to start on lower wages than the seniors they still don’t have to live in a hovel in the middle of nowhere and beg for a job from someone that refuses to accept a resume or phone call.
Any thoughts on why aviation is the one industry where starting out in the profession is so degrading?
Last edited by mikewil; 7th Nov 2010 at 00:23. Reason: paragraph spacing
In my opinion, the circumstances which they find themselves in when searching for their first job are not far short of degrading.
Other posters on this forum often offer advice to pack the car and head up north in the search for that first job, and work at a local service station or woolworths supermarket
while frequently visiting the operators of clapped out and arguably unsafe Cessna 210s
begging the chief pilots to let them fly them for less than a hungry jacks employee gets paid to flip burgers.
Some end up being lucky enough to get a job after a month or two
so they can finally be treated like dirt and paid virtually nothing to fly an aircraft which should no longer be in service
while living in accommodation which is close to the worst living conditions you will find in Australia.
Some even have stories about sleeping in the back of their car while up north.
I fail to understand how anyone can come back from this experience and justify it by saying “you will look back in this and appreciate them as the best experiences of your aviation career, where you made some of the best life long mates”. While you may make some life long friends and have pretty interesting stories to tell in years to come, that still doesn’t justify why the industry operates like this.
Flying is a skill which people spend many thousands of dollars on by the time they have their CPL, MECIR, ATPLs and whatever else they add to the list. Why is it that such skilled people are content with degrading themselves to the conditions that I have described earlier? Why is it that chief pilots in these charter companies don’t even have the decency to have a look at a resume or take a phone call from someone wanting a job? You actually need to be there begging for a job for months on end, to sometimes come home with nothing. This sounds like what happens on farming properties where unskilled workers go knocking on doors and beg farmers for some manual labour work on their farms.
In general pilots are respected as looked upon as highly as any other jobs out there…dentists, doctors, architects, psychologists, accountants…while people starting out in all these jobs have to start on lower wages than the seniors they still don’t have to live in a hovel in the middle of nowhere and beg for a job from someone that refuses to accept a resume or phone call.
Any thoughts on why aviation is the one industry where starting out in the profession is so degrading?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Aus
Age: 38
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreeing with all of GGs statements, I do have to ad that the majority (the ones that will succeed in the industry) have taken the blinkers off and realize that they won't be heading straight into an airline position (for those that aspire to), and realize the hard yards they have to put in to get where they want to be.
To succeed in this industry you need to be motivated, and deal with up north, mediocre pay, substandard conditions, this only shows determination and makes you a better person for it.
To succeed in this industry you need to be motivated, and deal with up north, mediocre pay, substandard conditions, this only shows determination and makes you a better person for it.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The cloud
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dunno some other industries are just as bad...
Have a mate who is a barrister up north... Yeap those poor fellas sometimes have to do it just the same...
He owes $100k for a bond uni degree
spent 2 years as an intern earning $0 yeap no pay
then had the promise of minimum wage for 3 years as he learnt the ropes
turned it down on hearing a firm in Darwin may need someone so packed the car at a whim... Worked in woolworths to pay the rent cause the boss was on leave..
He is now up for becoming a partner
sounds pretty familiar to some of us... I'm sure he was thinking he would be straight out of uni as a judge or wearing a wig.
The reality however is we all need to crawl before we can run... We all need to earn our stripes... I would hardly call it degrading. If anything it humbles many and weeds out those who don't want it as bad as the rest.
Of course some operators are better than others but that is a different matter...
Have a mate who is a barrister up north... Yeap those poor fellas sometimes have to do it just the same...
He owes $100k for a bond uni degree
spent 2 years as an intern earning $0 yeap no pay
then had the promise of minimum wage for 3 years as he learnt the ropes
turned it down on hearing a firm in Darwin may need someone so packed the car at a whim... Worked in woolworths to pay the rent cause the boss was on leave..
He is now up for becoming a partner
sounds pretty familiar to some of us... I'm sure he was thinking he would be straight out of uni as a judge or wearing a wig.
The reality however is we all need to crawl before we can run... We all need to earn our stripes... I would hardly call it degrading. If anything it humbles many and weeds out those who don't want it as bad as the rest.
Of course some operators are better than others but that is a different matter...
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South of the Border
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mikewil
So what is the point of your topic if you know it all.One needs to do their homework before shelling out the big bucks.It is an investment in your future,cause without training and education all you will ever do is stack shelves in the local supermarket.
Far too often all we can see is the end and not the journey.With age comes experience and knowledge and quite possibly regrets.
All part of the journey, so harden up or find another forum.
Far too often all we can see is the end and not the journey.With age comes experience and knowledge and quite possibly regrets.
All part of the journey, so harden up or find another forum.
Thread Starter
appreciate the replies, what you have all said is true. this does appear to be a fact of life for the young guys aspiring to end up in an airline position.
my opinion is just that conditions are below what they should be. sure the award is $38,000 per year for a s/e aeroplane pilot, but that is for a full time position. most pilots in their first 'up north' job are being paid on a casual basis for the number of flying hours they do which ends up being well below the $38,000 p/a. and plenty of operators dont even pay the award.
and i appreciate that the harsh conditions weed out the guys who dont want to do the hard yards, but the yards are arguably harder than they should be. conditions are so bad because pilots are prepared to work for nothing to get their first 1000 flying hours. i really dont understand how it got to the point of having to actually head there to ask for a job.
in most other industries where you apply for a job far away from home, you will still need to make the treck to wherever that position is, but the employer will have contacted you in response to a resume. the fact that pilots have to move away from home to work at woolworths really shows how bad things are for low time pilots. you should be able to work at the woolworths in your home city and receive a call from an operator in kununurra to be invited up for an interview rather than moving up there hoping for a job which may never come...
my opinion is just that conditions are below what they should be. sure the award is $38,000 per year for a s/e aeroplane pilot, but that is for a full time position. most pilots in their first 'up north' job are being paid on a casual basis for the number of flying hours they do which ends up being well below the $38,000 p/a. and plenty of operators dont even pay the award.
and i appreciate that the harsh conditions weed out the guys who dont want to do the hard yards, but the yards are arguably harder than they should be. conditions are so bad because pilots are prepared to work for nothing to get their first 1000 flying hours. i really dont understand how it got to the point of having to actually head there to ask for a job.
in most other industries where you apply for a job far away from home, you will still need to make the treck to wherever that position is, but the employer will have contacted you in response to a resume. the fact that pilots have to move away from home to work at woolworths really shows how bad things are for low time pilots. you should be able to work at the woolworths in your home city and receive a call from an operator in kununurra to be invited up for an interview rather than moving up there hoping for a job which may never come...
Aviation needs to be considered more like music, acting, painting etc.
Plenty of the Hollywood set have spent many years a broke actors working part time jobs to try and make it to the big time. Plenty of big name bands have spent years doing free/cheap gigs harassing club owners/promoters etc.
If you want a laid down career for you, go to uni get a commerce/economics degree and go work for a bank or insurance company. Not as exciting or interesting as flying but you will make more money, have a regular lifestyle, and have a nice little career path laid out for you, if that's what you prefer.
It is also worth pointing out that once some people get into an airline they start banging on about the 'hard yards' as self glorification, when in fact they weren't so bad after all. Have heard one guy tell me about the 'hard yards' when he never even left Melbourne for his whole career!!! Funny stuff.
Plenty of the Hollywood set have spent many years a broke actors working part time jobs to try and make it to the big time. Plenty of big name bands have spent years doing free/cheap gigs harassing club owners/promoters etc.
If you want a laid down career for you, go to uni get a commerce/economics degree and go work for a bank or insurance company. Not as exciting or interesting as flying but you will make more money, have a regular lifestyle, and have a nice little career path laid out for you, if that's what you prefer.
It is also worth pointing out that once some people get into an airline they start banging on about the 'hard yards' as self glorification, when in fact they weren't so bad after all. Have heard one guy tell me about the 'hard yards' when he never even left Melbourne for his whole career!!! Funny stuff.
I found it quite embarrasing to be associated with Gen Y sometimes, 
. It's not that friggin' hard sunshine. I found it quite easy to live a decent life on the $30,000 I got paid in my first job. Even as a casual, because you often had weeks where you earnt more than the full timers. You just had to save some of that for the weeks where you didn't earn more than them.
There's not many who don't anymore.
It's been like that for about the last 30 years. It's where the majority of GA work is, so why not go north? It's also the kind of profession where you don't know what you're getting employee wise, until they front up. Why risk that, when there's people there who you see face to face before you employ them?
It's not that hard of a road if you don't make it one. I loved my early GA days and don't regret one bit of them.
morno
. It's not that friggin' hard sunshine. I found it quite easy to live a decent life on the $30,000 I got paid in my first job. Even as a casual, because you often had weeks where you earnt more than the full timers. You just had to save some of that for the weeks where you didn't earn more than them.
and plenty of operators dont even pay the award.
i really dont understand how it got to the point of having to actually head there to ask for a job
It's not that hard of a road if you don't make it one. I loved my early GA days and don't regret one bit of them.
morno
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: cloud9
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is something dodgy about this thread seeing as I responded to it last night as did others now all thoes replies have gone. Did somone say somthing you did not like to hear?
Mate surley your flying school told you all about how this industry works they are good at telling what it is really like to new students.
As for degrading I guess I'm just not as precious as you 200hr wonder boys I loved my time up north and would still be there If I did not have a woman's shopping addiction to support.
I saw that Hungry Jacks where advertising for staff maybe that is more to your liking and less degrading and rewarding compaired to learning the ropes and climbing the ladder in the aviation industry.
Good luck mate you are going to need it
Mate surley your flying school told you all about how this industry works they are good at telling what it is really like to new students
.As for degrading I guess I'm just not as precious as you 200hr wonder boys I loved my time up north and would still be there If I did not have a woman's shopping addiction to support.
I saw that Hungry Jacks where advertising for staff maybe that is more to your liking and less degrading and rewarding compaired to learning the ropes and climbing the ladder in the aviation industry.
Good luck mate you are going to need it
Thread Starter
regarding the posts from last night, i have no idea what happened. the whole thread disappeared so i had to start a new one and retype it (notice how the opening post is different)...we dont all have a photographic memory.
the responses i am getting seem to be directed as if i am actually a pilot with a grudge against everyone moving north because i cant hack it. nowhere have i even said that i am a pilot.
this forum is from an observational point of view, not from the point of view of someone who cant hack the 'hard yards'
the responses i am getting seem to be directed as if i am actually a pilot with a grudge against everyone moving north because i cant hack it. nowhere have i even said that i am a pilot.
this forum is from an observational point of view, not from the point of view of someone who cant hack the 'hard yards'
Last edited by mikewil; 7th Nov 2010 at 02:34. Reason: typo
Its not just Australia either mate, if you want to be a pilot in Canada, then be prepared to do all manner of things before you even get the keys to a 206. Seen the show Ice Pilots? Those poor bastards have to go out and pre-warm aircraft in -40C. Id prefer sweating my box off in central australia and actually flying over that any day!
Its true, some of my best mates were first met during that 'first job'. Good times.....
Its true, some of my best mates were first met during that 'first job'. Good times.....
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: shivering in the cold dark shadow of my own magnificence.
Posts: 522
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any thoughts on why aviation is the one industry where starting out in the profession is so degrading?
And then when these young pilots finally get to an Airline the federation apologists have the gall to wonder why these pilots are all self centred non unionists.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: cloud9
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really take offence to you saying woking in GA up north is degrading as I am sure most others who have done it would feel the same.
Have you noticed that most of the ones who slag off at everything on prune are either unemployed or disgruntled instrutors who have never done the pilgramage and the ones that tell the stories with a smile on there face are the ones that have been there done that? Its all part of the adventure just like fat chicks don't knock it till you tried it.
Have you noticed that most of the ones who slag off at everything on prune are either unemployed or disgruntled instrutors who have never done the pilgramage and the ones that tell the stories with a smile on there face are the ones that have been there done that? Its all part of the adventure just like fat chicks don't knock it till you tried it.
in most other industries where you apply for a job far away from home, you will still need to make the treck to wherever that position is, but the employer will have contacted you in response to a resume.
And anyway- hundreds of foreign backpackers make the trip up north each year just for fun, so whats the big deal about doing a trip up there looking for work?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: ChCh NZ
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heading north to find that first job!
I am just looking for the opinions of other pilots and enthusiasts regarding the treck up north (in Australia that is) which pilots make in annual pilgrimages on a yearly basis.
I think it is ridiculous that everyone on these forums seems to be content with the way things work in the general aviation world. Students spend tens of thousands of dollars and many hours of devoted time to getting their CPL, MECIR, ATPLs and so on only to have to make the 'degrading' treck up north to find their first job flying a clapped out and arguably unsafe cessna 210.
Many pilots come back and say that it was the 'best years' of their aviation careers, but I fail to understand where they can come up with such a ridiculous statement about what they have had to put themselves through.
For many, the treck up north involves working at a woolworths service station to make enough money to survive on while they frequently visit the operators of the clapped out cessnas begging for a first break into the world of commercial aviation which for some may never come even after many months of roughing it. For the ones who do score that first job, they are most often flying aircraft which are well past their used by dates and in shocking condition while getting payed less than a hungry jacks burger flipper while living in the poorest living conditions that Australia has to offer.
Many try to argue that loving flying is what it is all about and that they must realise that they are starting at the bottom of the ladder of success. Well this is the only industry where professionals which such skills must start in such degrading positions. Accountants who love what they do, certainly start in lower paid positions when they find their first job than more senior ones but they are still able to live in capital cities in living conditions which are better than third world, the same can be said for architects, doctors, psychologists, dentists, teachers, mechanics, electricians and the list goes on.
Starting out in aviation is certainly one of the most degrading experiences a pilot will have to encounter in their career. The employers of fresh CPLs don't even have the decency to accept a resume in the mail or a phone call from an applicant. One has to make a huge change from the comforts of a capital city to an almost third world way of living to so much as get a conversation from a chief pilot. I fail to understand why the industry operates like this and that newbies are content with subjecting themselves to it.
Any thoughts or comments?
I am just looking for the opinions of other pilots and enthusiasts regarding the treck up north (in Australia that is) which pilots make in annual pilgrimages on a yearly basis.
I think it is ridiculous that everyone on these forums seems to be content with the way things work in the general aviation world. Students spend tens of thousands of dollars and many hours of devoted time to getting their CPL, MECIR, ATPLs and so on only to have to make the 'degrading' treck up north to find their first job flying a clapped out and arguably unsafe cessna 210.
Many pilots come back and say that it was the 'best years' of their aviation careers, but I fail to understand where they can come up with such a ridiculous statement about what they have had to put themselves through.
For many, the treck up north involves working at a woolworths service station to make enough money to survive on while they frequently visit the operators of the clapped out cessnas begging for a first break into the world of commercial aviation which for some may never come even after many months of roughing it. For the ones who do score that first job, they are most often flying aircraft which are well past their used by dates and in shocking condition while getting payed less than a hungry jacks burger flipper while living in the poorest living conditions that Australia has to offer.
Many try to argue that loving flying is what it is all about and that they must realise that they are starting at the bottom of the ladder of success. Well this is the only industry where professionals which such skills must start in such degrading positions. Accountants who love what they do, certainly start in lower paid positions when they find their first job than more senior ones but they are still able to live in capital cities in living conditions which are better than third world, the same can be said for architects, doctors, psychologists, dentists, teachers, mechanics, electricians and the list goes on.
Starting out in aviation is certainly one of the most degrading experiences a pilot will have to encounter in their career. The employers of fresh CPLs don't even have the decency to accept a resume in the mail or a phone call from an applicant. One has to make a huge change from the comforts of a capital city to an almost third world way of living to so much as get a conversation from a chief pilot. I fail to understand why the industry operates like this and that newbies are content with subjecting themselves to it.
Any thoughts or comments?
Yes I have. I am sure you won't want to hear them though.
More tissues anyone ?
Might be easier to stay home petal, you could get sunburnt up north or god forbid get a papercut.
Just stay at home and tell everyone that you have a cpl licence and are just waiting for Qantas to give you a direct entry command on the A380.
Just stay at home and tell everyone that you have a cpl licence and are just waiting for Qantas to give you a direct entry command on the A380.
Thread Starter
im not saying that i pity anyone who moves up north as everyone here seems to think, the point i was trying to make is that it often seems to get people nowhere these days.
with most of the airlines offering cadetships, it takes away many opportunities which would be given to general aviation guys. airlines turn down guys from GA with 2000 total and over 500 multi in favour of someone with zero total and zero multi.
if there were no cadetships, the industry would indeed be much fairer. rather than being stuck in GA for 10 years watching cadets get your seat at the front of a turboprop or jet, you may only need to be there for 2 years before progressing into an airline.
i cant understand why an airline would rather have someone with zero experience than a pilot who has been out bush for even 6 months with 600 hours total and zero multi...
with most of the airlines offering cadetships, it takes away many opportunities which would be given to general aviation guys. airlines turn down guys from GA with 2000 total and over 500 multi in favour of someone with zero total and zero multi.
if there were no cadetships, the industry would indeed be much fairer. rather than being stuck in GA for 10 years watching cadets get your seat at the front of a turboprop or jet, you may only need to be there for 2 years before progressing into an airline.
i cant understand why an airline would rather have someone with zero experience than a pilot who has been out bush for even 6 months with 600 hours total and zero multi...
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Australia
Age: 65
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Question of quality...
I am fed up to the back teeth from reading posts by newbs on the first job market. Questions such as these posted on a professional forum such as this are deserving of the responses they get. It has been done to death many times over kiddies. No-one is disputing the first job is the hardest step of all but can't you people learn to farquing READ?...research?...do your homework? Aviation employment is dynamic but by and large it is the same as it was when prior generations went through. Read. Learn. In silence.
mikewil,
Not everyone wants to go to airlines either. So the job up north is even more important.
morno
Not everyone wants to go to airlines either. So the job up north is even more important.
morno
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most have covered my thoughts but I must reiterate that you must never do this:
Others during my era bought beers/sucked up. Absolutely under no circumstances is there a need to beg or suck up. Present yourself in remote areas as a professional, looking and capable of hard work and you will succeed.
begging the chief pilots to let them fly them