Airvan crash on Flinders Island
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"Word is it that Casa are claiming that the pilot is a 'hero' and that this accident is being swept under the carpet."
Interesting...wonder if the crew of the Norfolk Island ditching would be afforded the same sympathetic treatment... or is that too much of a legal minefield!!!???
Once bitten twice shy eh CASA dudes??!!
Interesting...wonder if the crew of the Norfolk Island ditching would be afforded the same sympathetic treatment... or is that too much of a legal minefield!!!???
Once bitten twice shy eh CASA dudes??!!
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Let me see.........If they found the wx was VMC and clear below 1000' and if they had a runaway trip that pushed the a/c into cloud and the best he could do was slow it down and put it into the bush......or some crazy story like that....perhaps.
Otherwise I think you are smoking something you should not be!
Otherwise I think you are smoking something you should not be!
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I need your help
I am one of the survivors to the Flinders island plan crash from October the 15th 2010.
I am devastated to be told this was just an accident. There has to be something I can do to get the Aviation law changed I am not looking for money but I am looking for justice because if this was a car accident he would be facing lose of license and being charged.
I am hoping you can help me.
I am devastated to be told this was just an accident. There has to be something I can do to get the Aviation law changed I am not looking for money but I am looking for justice because if this was a car accident he would be facing lose of license and being charged.
I am hoping you can help me.
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jowalsh, have you been officially informed by CASA that they are not pursuing legal action against the pilot? If so, did they give you any reasons for that decision?
If you have not heard anything from CASA I am not surprised. Their wheels grind incredibly slowly and often legal action can be years later.
If you have not heard anything from CASA I am not surprised. Their wheels grind incredibly slowly and often legal action can be years later.
From ATSB
On 15 October 2010, the pilot of a Gippsland Aeronautics GA-8 Airvan, registered VH-DQP, was conducting a charter flight from Lady Barron, Flinders Island to Bridport, Tasmania with six passengers on board. The aircraft departed Lady Barron Aerodrome at about 1700 Australian Eastern Daylight-saving Time and entered instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) several minutes afterwards while climbing to the intended cruising altitude of about 1,500 ft. The pilot did not hold a command instrument rating and the aircraft was not equipped for flight in IMC.
He attempted to turn the aircraft to return to Lady Barron Aerodrome but became lost, steering instead towards high ground in the Strzelecki National Park in the south-east of Flinders Island.
At about 1715, the aircraft exited cloud in the Strzelecki National Park, very close to the ground. The pilot turned to the left, entering a small valley in which he could neither turn the aircraft nor out climb the terrain. He elected to slow the aircraft to its stalling speed for a forced landing and, moments later, it impacted the tree tops and then the ground. The first passenger to exit the aircraft used the aircraft fire extinguisher to put out a small fire that had begun beneath the engine. The other passengers and the pilot then exited the aircraft safely. One passenger was slightly injured during the impact; the pilot and other passengers were uninjured.
During the night, all of the occupants of the aircraft were rescued by helicopter and taken to the hospital in Whitemark, Flinders Island.
Photo--> http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/2482259/ao2010080_fig8.jpg
On 15 October 2010, the pilot of a Gippsland Aeronautics GA-8 Airvan, registered VH-DQP, was conducting a charter flight from Lady Barron, Flinders Island to Bridport, Tasmania with six passengers on board. The aircraft departed Lady Barron Aerodrome at about 1700 Australian Eastern Daylight-saving Time and entered instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) several minutes afterwards while climbing to the intended cruising altitude of about 1,500 ft. The pilot did not hold a command instrument rating and the aircraft was not equipped for flight in IMC.
He attempted to turn the aircraft to return to Lady Barron Aerodrome but became lost, steering instead towards high ground in the Strzelecki National Park in the south-east of Flinders Island.
At about 1715, the aircraft exited cloud in the Strzelecki National Park, very close to the ground. The pilot turned to the left, entering a small valley in which he could neither turn the aircraft nor out climb the terrain. He elected to slow the aircraft to its stalling speed for a forced landing and, moments later, it impacted the tree tops and then the ground. The first passenger to exit the aircraft used the aircraft fire extinguisher to put out a small fire that had begun beneath the engine. The other passengers and the pilot then exited the aircraft safely. One passenger was slightly injured during the impact; the pilot and other passengers were uninjured.
During the night, all of the occupants of the aircraft were rescued by helicopter and taken to the hospital in Whitemark, Flinders Island.
Photo--> http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/2482259/ao2010080_fig8.jpg
am one of the survivors to the Flinders island plan crash from October the 15th 2010.
I am devastated to be told this was just an accident. There has to be something I can do to get the Aviation law changed I am not looking for money but I am looking for justice because if this was a car accident he would be facing lose of license and being charged.
I am hoping you can help me.
I am devastated to be told this was just an accident. There has to be something I can do to get the Aviation law changed I am not looking for money but I am looking for justice because if this was a car accident he would be facing lose of license and being charged.
I am hoping you can help me.
What I wish you to think about, is did the Pilot deliberately do this to you? Did he intentionally put you in danger? No, I think not.
What happened was poor judgement, and he did the best to get you back on the ground safely in poor conditions that he was not qualified to fly in.
Had he not put her down in the trees, you probably would have ended up in the side of a hill.
This is an accident (not a deliberate). The Pilot made poor decisions which put you in the situation, and he made good ones to get you out of it the best way he could.
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I would differ from that assessment, how can one commence a flight
"in poor conditions that he was not qualified to fly in". and not be responsible for the inevitable outcome?
" did the Pilot deliberately do this to you?" given the rest of the facts I would say yes. not intentionally perhaps, but deliberately, certainly.
"Had he not put her down in the trees, you probably would have ended up in the side of a hill." Is that not where the trees were situated, on the side of a hill?
"in poor conditions that he was not qualified to fly in". and not be responsible for the inevitable outcome?
" did the Pilot deliberately do this to you?" given the rest of the facts I would say yes. not intentionally perhaps, but deliberately, certainly.
"Had he not put her down in the trees, you probably would have ended up in the side of a hill." Is that not where the trees were situated, on the side of a hill?
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I hate the word "accident" in aviation as it implies no responsibility for what has occurred. There is a causal trail that leads to a crash that is the result of deliberate actions on the part of the pilot.
No pilot will deliberately put themselves in a situation where it is more likely than not they will die. After all, they are usually the first to arrive at the crash scene. However, there are a lot of pilots who do not take the time to properly assess the risks they are about to face or totally overestimate their own abilities. As a group pilots are very forgiving of their own, after all, most of us do try to learn from their mistakes and we recognise that in other pilots.
However, there have been too many instances where very poor judgement has been shown by people who should know better. From what I have read this crash appears to fall into that category. The pilot certainly did not start out with the intention of crashing the aircraft but his poor judgement and lack of skills achieved that outcome putting at risk the lives of his passengers. It was only his manual flying skill at the end of the flight that saved his passengers lives BUT it should not have been necessary. Whats the expression.........using superior skill to avoid a situation where it is necessary to use that superior skill.
If the evidence was there I believe this is a case that should have been prosecuted.
No pilot will deliberately put themselves in a situation where it is more likely than not they will die. After all, they are usually the first to arrive at the crash scene. However, there are a lot of pilots who do not take the time to properly assess the risks they are about to face or totally overestimate their own abilities. As a group pilots are very forgiving of their own, after all, most of us do try to learn from their mistakes and we recognise that in other pilots.
However, there have been too many instances where very poor judgement has been shown by people who should know better. From what I have read this crash appears to fall into that category. The pilot certainly did not start out with the intention of crashing the aircraft but his poor judgement and lack of skills achieved that outcome putting at risk the lives of his passengers. It was only his manual flying skill at the end of the flight that saved his passengers lives BUT it should not have been necessary. Whats the expression.........using superior skill to avoid a situation where it is necessary to use that superior skill.
If the evidence was there I believe this is a case that should have been prosecuted.
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I guess we can leave prosecution to the regulators to decide but it does make you wonder what punishment would be appropriate in this instance.
The main question is how does one get into this situation in the first place?
- Poor Judgement
- Lack of training
- Inadequate equipment
- Commercial pressure
In this instance, all of the above.
How can one avoid this in the future?
- Increased training requirements
- Mandatory instrument ratings
- Mandatory aircraft equipment
Can of worms there. Single engine charter VFR only.
You could just say "buyer beware" however how does the travelling public know they are safe with a particular operator? They wouldn't know that the operator doesn't have an instrument rating or training to go with it. This is the problem when you put your life into someone elses hands, time and time again.
People will always make small and large mistakes and I welcome suggestions on how to avoid this.
The main question is how does one get into this situation in the first place?
- Poor Judgement
- Lack of training
- Inadequate equipment
- Commercial pressure
In this instance, all of the above.
How can one avoid this in the future?
- Increased training requirements
- Mandatory instrument ratings
- Mandatory aircraft equipment
Can of worms there. Single engine charter VFR only.
You could just say "buyer beware" however how does the travelling public know they are safe with a particular operator? They wouldn't know that the operator doesn't have an instrument rating or training to go with it. This is the problem when you put your life into someone elses hands, time and time again.
People will always make small and large mistakes and I welcome suggestions on how to avoid this.
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What about the employer? Why is the employer putting its employees on a single engine charter operator, when there is a RPT operator also on the same service?
Was there a twin engine option available?
Why did the operator concerned fly in this weather? Yes, no pilot plans to crash, no one plans to do that, however simply put, he should NOT have been flying VFR in that weather (I remember the weather on the day quite well, it was well and truly IFR weather) ...
I wish you luck - I'm no lawyer, but there is a reason for why the tort of negligence exists.
Was there a twin engine option available?
Why did the operator concerned fly in this weather? Yes, no pilot plans to crash, no one plans to do that, however simply put, he should NOT have been flying VFR in that weather (I remember the weather on the day quite well, it was well and truly IFR weather) ...
I wish you luck - I'm no lawyer, but there is a reason for why the tort of negligence exists.
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You would think this would be an easy case for CASA to prosecute, The weather was marginal for IFR even, on the day , and was like that all day, although the worst of it coming through in waves. There are some excellent witnesses for the prosecution. ie; the passengers, and I beleive there is some excellent photographs taken by the pax before, during and after the 'accident'
"xxx"........poor judgment, lack of training & inadequate equip can be rectified to a degree but yr last comment commercial pressure the most challenging can't be fixed especially in today's economic climate. So yr 4 points pretty much sums it up here.
As others have said there's little doubt this pilot got out of bed that morning with the intentions of crashing. He simply had a task to do (the charter) & unless the plane was busted & couldn't be moved or the cloud was on the deck where one couldn't see a foot in front of ones self then this mission was gunna go ahead just like it does all over Oz day in day out & in wx that's questionable. You just never hear of the 'close calls' that would be daily out therein charter-land!
You can't prevent a person on a mission where up to that point in time was or believed it was okay to launch. Hindsight is rarely available b4 hand.
Many years ago I was sitting at Whitemark Airport (YFLI) wanting to go back to EN after a few days fishing on the Is. I was VFR in those days. A/C was VH TIZ, C210 & a mate of mine in an Aztruck. The wx was crap as it can be on the Island. I'd never flown in the vicinity of such lousy wx so was reluctant to turn a wheel but my pax where keen to get going. My mate whom was IFR with an IFR A/C said 4get it. So we stayed put for another 2 days. He had the hindsight that day, I was lucky in some ways!
Everyone survived so lets hope a few learnt from this accident & it makes just one other pilot who is presented with a sim situation stop & think twice.
Commercial pressure, the grim reaper in the back of everyone's mind just waiting!
Wmk2
As others have said there's little doubt this pilot got out of bed that morning with the intentions of crashing. He simply had a task to do (the charter) & unless the plane was busted & couldn't be moved or the cloud was on the deck where one couldn't see a foot in front of ones self then this mission was gunna go ahead just like it does all over Oz day in day out & in wx that's questionable. You just never hear of the 'close calls' that would be daily out therein charter-land!
You can't prevent a person on a mission where up to that point in time was or believed it was okay to launch. Hindsight is rarely available b4 hand.
Many years ago I was sitting at Whitemark Airport (YFLI) wanting to go back to EN after a few days fishing on the Is. I was VFR in those days. A/C was VH TIZ, C210 & a mate of mine in an Aztruck. The wx was crap as it can be on the Island. I'd never flown in the vicinity of such lousy wx so was reluctant to turn a wheel but my pax where keen to get going. My mate whom was IFR with an IFR A/C said 4get it. So we stayed put for another 2 days. He had the hindsight that day, I was lucky in some ways!
Everyone survived so lets hope a few learnt from this accident & it makes just one other pilot who is presented with a sim situation stop & think twice.
Commercial pressure, the grim reaper in the back of everyone's mind just waiting!
Wmk2
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"The pilot was really focused, he did an incredible job," she said.
Fellow passenger Jo Walsh agreed.
Fellow passenger Jo Walsh agreed.
I am devastated to be told this was just an accident. There has to be something I can do to get the Aviation law changed I am not looking for money but I am looking for justice because if this was a car accident he would be facing lose of license and being charged.
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Swiss cheese
as others have said...
Company - charter requirements. Why so low? Where was the risk assessment on behalf of employees?
Operator - Training standards. Recruitment standards. Why did it allow a non ifr rated employee with a clear lack of experience in those conditions make a decision that endangered the occupants - including the pilot.
Pilot - how did the last line of defence allow the commercial pressures and others to all a (in hindsight) very poor decision.
An avoidable accident... Absolutely!
Negligence? Absolutely not. IMHO I don't think he had all the tools and information required to make the decision. Ultimately he was in charge but there is a long line of errors prior to getting tothat point...
Company and operators duty of care?
Just glad everyone walked away!!
(p.s I'm no lawyer and don't know the pilot so can't talk of exact circumstances just my opinion from the facts given in the Atsb report.)
as others have said...
Company - charter requirements. Why so low? Where was the risk assessment on behalf of employees?
Operator - Training standards. Recruitment standards. Why did it allow a non ifr rated employee with a clear lack of experience in those conditions make a decision that endangered the occupants - including the pilot.
Pilot - how did the last line of defence allow the commercial pressures and others to all a (in hindsight) very poor decision.
An avoidable accident... Absolutely!
Negligence? Absolutely not. IMHO I don't think he had all the tools and information required to make the decision. Ultimately he was in charge but there is a long line of errors prior to getting tothat point...
Company and operators duty of care?
Just glad everyone walked away!!
(p.s I'm no lawyer and don't know the pilot so can't talk of exact circumstances just my opinion from the facts given in the Atsb report.)
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Operator - Training standards. Recruitment standards.
Why did it allow a non ifr rated employee with a clear lack of experience in those conditions make a decision that endangered the occupants - including the pilot.
Pilot - how did the last line of defence allow the commercial pressures and others to all a (in hindsight) very poor decision.
An avoidable accident... Absolutely!
Negligence? Absolutely not. IMHO I don't think he had all the tools and information required to make the decision. Ultimately he was in charge but there is a long line of errors prior to getting to that point...
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It is interesting that Telstra still allow their employees to travel in single engine aircraft given that somewhere around 15 years ago three of them were killed when a single engine VFR aircraft stalled and crashed on takeoff from Three Hummock Island at the other end of Bass Straight.
Given the weather on the day of the Flinders Island crash, the flight was always going to be scud-running. Now, all of us have probably done it at some stage but I don't without having an escape plan even if that plan involves utilising IFR skills. For those who know Lady Barron will know that there are very limited VFR scud-running routes. The airstrip used points straight at Mt Strezlecki; a turn to the south will point you at Cape Barren Island with Mt Munro with other islands and hills waiting to catch you.
This flight was very poor decision making by the owner-operator. Dollars over sense.
Given the weather on the day of the Flinders Island crash, the flight was always going to be scud-running. Now, all of us have probably done it at some stage but I don't without having an escape plan even if that plan involves utilising IFR skills. For those who know Lady Barron will know that there are very limited VFR scud-running routes. The airstrip used points straight at Mt Strezlecki; a turn to the south will point you at Cape Barren Island with Mt Munro with other islands and hills waiting to catch you.
This flight was very poor decision making by the owner-operator. Dollars over sense.
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without having an escape plan even if that plan involves utilising IFR skills.