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archangel7
Well I suppose yours is a pretty normal viewpoint from instructor-land. One day, when you grow up and become an airline pilot (actually, just grow up, full stop), you will understand how life priorities can change and how the occupation you once gazed at with starry eyes becomes less important once you have achieved a certain level of success, and other fun stuff like families have come along. This is particularly true if you end up flying 13 hour stretches on a flying computer that you aren't ALLOWED to hand fly for more than five minutes at either end.
Me, I still love flying and enjoy going to work each day, I enjoy teaching others to fly airliners, and I just generally have a lot of fun. However the balance isn't always easy to find, and many senior Qantas pilots will tell you that.
And as for this:
Surely one of the most naive statements ever posted on PPRuNe...
Oh forgot to mention, nothing above meant to imply that instructing isn't "grown up" flying... it's actually great fun. Just a lot of the people doing it aren't "grown up" yet!
And why terminate the thread just because you think the guy might be a troll? So what? it's all good fun, there are some valid viewpoints here... if you don't like it, don't read it...
Oh, and this:
No... you should get paid whatever you are stupid enough to agree to.
Operators know this and take the p*ss. The only reason they get away with it is because enough young muppets let them.
Some of these companies do exist on a knife edge and simply can't afford what some would consider a decent package. So some of you would rather see them shut down if they can't pay better wages, thus depriving all those working there of jobs? That's pretty stupid.
Anyway, history has shown us that young pilots will climb over each other's bodies to get a gig, so any form of pilot unity is never going to happen and you might as well get used to it. Ain't never going to change.
Well I suppose yours is a pretty normal viewpoint from instructor-land. One day, when you grow up and become an airline pilot (actually, just grow up, full stop), you will understand how life priorities can change and how the occupation you once gazed at with starry eyes becomes less important once you have achieved a certain level of success, and other fun stuff like families have come along. This is particularly true if you end up flying 13 hour stretches on a flying computer that you aren't ALLOWED to hand fly for more than five minutes at either end.
Me, I still love flying and enjoy going to work each day, I enjoy teaching others to fly airliners, and I just generally have a lot of fun. However the balance isn't always easy to find, and many senior Qantas pilots will tell you that.
And as for this:
It’s a journey and it’s an adventure and the only people who make it are the ones who want it bad enough. The reason it’s so difficult is to keep the other guys out and keep the people who want it bad enough! It’s a tough industry and no one will give you a job on a silver platter...it’s always been this way!
Oh forgot to mention, nothing above meant to imply that instructing isn't "grown up" flying... it's actually great fun. Just a lot of the people doing it aren't "grown up" yet!
And why terminate the thread just because you think the guy might be a troll? So what? it's all good fun, there are some valid viewpoints here... if you don't like it, don't read it...
Oh, and this:
Simple question, if you work as a pilot, should you receive as a minimum the award?
Operators know this and take the p*ss. The only reason they get away with it is because enough young muppets let them.
Some of these companies do exist on a knife edge and simply can't afford what some would consider a decent package. So some of you would rather see them shut down if they can't pay better wages, thus depriving all those working there of jobs? That's pretty stupid.
Anyway, history has shown us that young pilots will climb over each other's bodies to get a gig, so any form of pilot unity is never going to happen and you might as well get used to it. Ain't never going to change.
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It’s a tough industry and no one will give you a job on a silver platter...it’s always been this way! Always! So I don’t see why you guys are complaining about it now, you should've done your research before you become pilots.
I enjoy my job. I have spent many years and spent many more tears and frustration to be where I am today. With regards to weloveseaplanes definitions, I consider myself an Aviator. But I have gotten to the point where flying aircraft (of any description) is not the be all to end all. If I think that it will for one moment effect my kids or rest of family, I will be gone in a heart beat. I guess then I am really only a Pilot
However the balance isn't always easy to find
Last edited by Monopole; 4th Oct 2010 at 03:51.
If the business cant afford to pay the award then the business model is already broken. I'm not saying everyone has to come out with 100k/pa packages, but offering sub award pay and conditions just to 'provide a job' doesn't serve the greater good, in my opinion.
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doesn't serve the greater good
Since when did any small business - particularly in aviation - have any obligation to the greater good...???
You start a business to make money, not to enhance the career prospects of your staff. That happens later, if the business is successful.
Many aviation businesses are marginal. Whatever you may think of their business model - which is normally just about survival - they have absolutely no obligation to meet your salary expectation.
if you don't like the package, don't take the job. Simple, even in union-obsessed Australia.
As an employer in this industry, I sleep pretty soundly knowing that our staff get their full entitlements under the award including superannuation etc. Pilots working for less for shonky employers are guaranteeing they will continue to flourish whilst the operator trying to do the right thing sees their business walking out the door because some charter pax, student or hirer can save $5.00 per hour by going to someone who pays their staff 4/5 of FA.
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The point I was trying to make is that floats is not really an environment for a 200hr pilot, I admit there are exceptions to this generalisation. Floats should not be a way of getting into the industry for a low timer that is only applying to the position because he saw it advertised and thought wow that would be a cool way to get my first job in the industry. Alligator used to have a min of 800hrs TT before they would even consider letting someone fly PQJ. The reason for this was that by the 800hr mark the pilot should have some sort of idea on flying a plane and that would make it a lot easier for them to transition to the water ops. Believe me Lake Kununurra is a lot easier learning curve that the gold coast broadwater.
As for the crab pot incident.
1. I suspect the said crab pot was not really an issue as there was no sign of said crab pot in any of the after accident photos.
2. The only way a crab pot could entangle itself was if the water rudders were left down during takeoff run, and even if they were left down for the take off run as soon as plane gets up to a reasonable speed the water pressure would force the rudders to the up streamlined position and supposed crap pot would no longer be an issue as it should simply slip free.
3. If plane did get airborne and pilot decided to land again as crab pot was banging against fuselage (as was stated in various articles) then I would expect that on touchdown the crab pot contacting the waters surface would create enough of a drag effect to tear off the water rudder to which it had attached itself. Both rudders seem attached and undamaged in all post incident pics.
4. I would not expect a competent float pilot to become entangled in crab pots and if he did he would choose to abort well before he got airborne.
5. Crabpot would create significant drag and the decision to abort should have been made much much earlier, I would guess that the reduced performance would have been quite noticeable.
6. I suspect that the crabpot was in fact fictional and an inexperienced low time float pilot simply miscalculated the depth over the sand bar and his take off run required, thus he drove the plane onto the sandbar and flipped. Have not yet heard any reports from the pax to this date confirming or denying the pilots versoin of events and I find that a bit strange.
Best of luck with the job app, be sure to let us all know if in fact you get the job and how it turns out. Maybe it will turn out to be a good genuine offer of employment leading to bigger and better things but I doubt it.
The point I was trying to make is that floats is not really an environment for a 200hr pilot, I admit there are exceptions to this generalisation. Floats should not be a way of getting into the industry for a low timer that is only applying to the position because he saw it advertised and thought wow that would be a cool way to get my first job in the industry. Alligator used to have a min of 800hrs TT before they would even consider letting someone fly PQJ. The reason for this was that by the 800hr mark the pilot should have some sort of idea on flying a plane and that would make it a lot easier for them to transition to the water ops. Believe me Lake Kununurra is a lot easier learning curve that the gold coast broadwater.
As for the crab pot incident.
1. I suspect the said crab pot was not really an issue as there was no sign of said crab pot in any of the after accident photos.
2. The only way a crab pot could entangle itself was if the water rudders were left down during takeoff run, and even if they were left down for the take off run as soon as plane gets up to a reasonable speed the water pressure would force the rudders to the up streamlined position and supposed crap pot would no longer be an issue as it should simply slip free.
3. If plane did get airborne and pilot decided to land again as crab pot was banging against fuselage (as was stated in various articles) then I would expect that on touchdown the crab pot contacting the waters surface would create enough of a drag effect to tear off the water rudder to which it had attached itself. Both rudders seem attached and undamaged in all post incident pics.
4. I would not expect a competent float pilot to become entangled in crab pots and if he did he would choose to abort well before he got airborne.
5. Crabpot would create significant drag and the decision to abort should have been made much much earlier, I would guess that the reduced performance would have been quite noticeable.
6. I suspect that the crabpot was in fact fictional and an inexperienced low time float pilot simply miscalculated the depth over the sand bar and his take off run required, thus he drove the plane onto the sandbar and flipped. Have not yet heard any reports from the pax to this date confirming or denying the pilots versoin of events and I find that a bit strange.
Best of luck with the job app, be sure to let us all know if in fact you get the job and how it turns out. Maybe it will turn out to be a good genuine offer of employment leading to bigger and better things but I doubt it.
Thanks for the info Hugh, good to get that sort of insight!
I sincerely hope that if I do get a call up that it is indeed as you said a genuine offer, but only time will tell like that!
I sincerely hope that if I do get a call up that it is indeed as you said a genuine offer, but only time will tell like that!
What planet are you living on?
Since when did any small business - particularly in aviation - have any obligation to the greater good...???
You start a business to make money, not to enhance the career prospects of your staff. That happens later, if the business is successful.
Many aviation businesses are marginal. Whatever you may think of their business model - which is normally just about survival - they have absolutely no obligation to meet your salary expectation.
if you don't like the package, don't take the job. Simple, even in union-obsessed Australia.
Since when did any small business - particularly in aviation - have any obligation to the greater good...???
You start a business to make money, not to enhance the career prospects of your staff. That happens later, if the business is successful.
Many aviation businesses are marginal. Whatever you may think of their business model - which is normally just about survival - they have absolutely no obligation to meet your salary expectation.
if you don't like the package, don't take the job. Simple, even in union-obsessed Australia.
You commented that its stupid for people to believe that non-viable businesses (defined as those who are unable to meet the obligations of the law) should cease operating. The 'greater good' to which I refer is not the one considered by the owner of the business because as you say, he could care less.
Derive the meaning of my statement with regard to aviation as the entity, not a sole operator. On the balance of factors it doesn't serve the greater good for the industry having companies exist that are by that very definition non viable, just to provide a 'job' on illegal pay.
As for don't like the package, don't take the job? Couldn't agree more and I have certainly exercised that principle more than once.
Not much point debating with you however as we're mostly in agreement. Things aren't going to change as market forces > *
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Yes although the businesses I am talking about are not non-viable... they might be marginal, but that means marginally profitable, not that they can't meet their obligations. Such businesses can only stay profitable by keeping pay levels down and reducing costs.
Having said that, any business owner would be crazy to want to stay in that position. Those that can move on, will, and everyone profits in the end. Those that can't become victims of natural selection, and probably a good thing too.
It's a pretty fine line...
Agreed on market forces. Perhaps communism IS the answer in aviation...
Having said that, any business owner would be crazy to want to stay in that position. Those that can move on, will, and everyone profits in the end. Those that can't become victims of natural selection, and probably a good thing too.
It's a pretty fine line...
Agreed on market forces. Perhaps communism IS the answer in aviation...
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Simple question, if you work as a pilot, should you receive as a minimum the award?
Rules are there for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.
The award is there to protect said fools.
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"Many aviation businesses are marginal. Whatever you may think of their business model - which is normally just about survival - they have absolutely no obligation to meet your salary expectation.
if you don't like the package, don't take the job."
Agree 100% with remoak.
"And why terminate the thread just because you think the guy might be a troll? So what? it's all good fun, there are some valid viewpoints here... if you don't like it, don't read it"
Again agree 100% with remoak.
Interesting to see that our eloquent friend Soldat is still partaking in a thread he twice ordered closed . . ."The thread should be closed" , "the thread should be terminated."
You'll excuse me if I don't agree with you Soldat when you call me"either a troll or a moron" nor a "muppet." However I do agree with most of your posts 64 & 69 which you managed to get through without insulting anyone . . . its much nicer when you play friendly.
Indeed by continuing the thread there seems to be a lot of agreement reached as I too believe the award should as a minimum be paid to all pilots.
Now if only we could all agree on being more positive in our flying and dealings with others . . .
if you don't like the package, don't take the job."
Agree 100% with remoak.
"And why terminate the thread just because you think the guy might be a troll? So what? it's all good fun, there are some valid viewpoints here... if you don't like it, don't read it"
Again agree 100% with remoak.
Interesting to see that our eloquent friend Soldat is still partaking in a thread he twice ordered closed . . ."The thread should be closed" , "the thread should be terminated."
You'll excuse me if I don't agree with you Soldat when you call me"either a troll or a moron" nor a "muppet." However I do agree with most of your posts 64 & 69 which you managed to get through without insulting anyone . . . its much nicer when you play friendly.
Indeed by continuing the thread there seems to be a lot of agreement reached as I too believe the award should as a minimum be paid to all pilots.
Now if only we could all agree on being more positive in our flying and dealings with others . . .
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It's all well and good being marginal BUT if you can't meet the legal minimums for pay, then you shouldn't be operating.
If not, either your Labour department, unions, or government(s), take your pick, are thoroughly useless.
It seems more likely that employers are getting around the law by defining the job in a certain way, in which case there is nothing illegal about it and let the employee beware.
As an aside, I do a little consulting and for a recent project, determined that the operation would be marginal initially but should be profitable within a year, but only if certain economies could be implemented. One of these was the use of First Officers who would pay for their type rating, and then fly for little or no pay (the incentive being twin turbine time). The idea that they should pay to fly was also tabled.
Now there's a conundrum... do you go down that route, and allow ten or so inexperienced pilots to gain extremely valuable multi turbine time that they would otherwise have no chance of getting, or do you bin the whole project because you can't pay a proper salary?
I can assure you that that my initial research proved that the offer of multi turbine time for no pay would be MASSIVELY over-subscribed. Pilots were phoning me on the mere sniff of a possibility of such a gig.
Which is better for the industry? You tell me. Personally, the idea of not paying F/Os a proper salary appalls me, but I have to recognise that in todays market, potential F/Os would be lining up around the corner to get the gig...
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Heres a Question for you all.
Yes i agree its disgusting expecting employees to work under such a contract, but what is the alternative for those young hr pilots out there?
sit on there arse and do nothing?
Birddog
Yes i agree its disgusting expecting employees to work under such a contract, but what is the alternative for those young hr pilots out there?
sit on there arse and do nothing?
Birddog
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Heres a Question for you all.
Yes i agree its disgusting expecting employees to work under such a contract, but what is the alternative for those young hr pilots out there?
sit on there arse and do nothing?
Birddog
Yes i agree its disgusting expecting employees to work under such a contract, but what is the alternative for those young hr pilots out there?
sit on there arse and do nothing?
Birddog
1. Sit on arse and do nothing = broke but with arse intact (whole)
2. Work arse off for nothing = broke but with less than a whole arse (perhaps as little as half.)
I'd rather be an arse whole rather than a half arsed Pilot. Or was that aviator? Or is that a half arsed Pilot in aviators wishing that they were as good as an arse whole.
Perhaps if you live long enough and work hard enough you too can be a complete arse whole. But you'll never really be cool until you start flying with a popped collar.
This here's ma button pressin thumb.
.
Last edited by psycho joe; 4th Oct 2010 at 12:59. Reason: it was late and i was tired
And why terminate the thread just because you think the guy might be a troll? So what? it's all good fun
Here's another laugh for you all (remember this old chestnut?!!)
OI, LIZZY! Can I buy you a drink babe?!
P.S. It's not all funny - but it's pretty bloody funny.
being a pilot and picking up ladies in the bar in your uniform
So chat up the fat ugly ones (no offence Lizzy, you're hot!!) Ha Ha HA
CR.
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Remoak.... if the need to implement the suggestions you've described is required to help get it off the ground then I'm sorry to say the venture is more than likely undercapitlised in the first place and will fail in all fairness. Sorry mate, thats business.
Yes, your heart may be in the right place in getting these people jobs however if I was an investor in the project I would have serious reservations about my funds being in there in the first place.
More than happy to continue the discussion via PM.
Regards,
Drivr
Yes, your heart may be in the right place in getting these people jobs however if I was an investor in the project I would have serious reservations about my funds being in there in the first place.
More than happy to continue the discussion via PM.
Regards,
Drivr
Back on a serious note...
Remoak:
FFS!!! Come on, do you expect me to believe that NOBODY ever got any multi turbine time unless they "bought it"?!! Clearly that is just NOT TRUE! A poor choice of words, on your part I hope. I really can't believe that anyone would believe that!
So what am I missing? (Serious question) Maybe the point is that what's lacking is patience, in the industry today? That's also why those who recoil at all this BYO endo, in all it's various flavours and strengths, do recoil with such disdain...
Think about it - at the heart of the matter, I believe, is Operators figuring out that they can take the impatience of today's candidates (did someone say Gen-Y?), all the way to the bank, like it's currency (the $$$ kind).
Well, the proof's in the pudding, as they say... Why can't these guys just realise that they DON'T HAVE TO DO THIS?!!! WHY?!!! 
Seriously, go destroy some other industry. And if you really must destroy this one, Christ how stupid are you to do it at the start of your working life in it?!!!
CR.
gain extremely valuable multi turbine time that they would otherwise have no chance of getting, or... (my underlining, for emphasis.)
So what am I missing? (Serious question) Maybe the point is that what's lacking is patience, in the industry today? That's also why those who recoil at all this BYO endo, in all it's various flavours and strengths, do recoil with such disdain...
Think about it - at the heart of the matter, I believe, is Operators figuring out that they can take the impatience of today's candidates (did someone say Gen-Y?), all the way to the bank, like it's currency (the $$$ kind).
I can assure you that that my initial research proved that the offer of multi turbine time for no pay would be MASSIVELY over-subscribed. Pilots were phoning me on the mere sniff of a possibility of such a gig.
Seriously, go destroy some other industry. And if you really must destroy this one, Christ how stupid are you to do it at the start of your working life in it?!!!
CR.
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Sure, I agree that money is expected to be tight for the first year or so, but projections have the proposed new operation moving into the black pretty quickly with some pretty solid contracts. That's not an unusual scenario in these times where capital is hard to find. The problem becomes harder as aircraft companies stop leasing older aircraft and look for quick cash sales. Anyway, the current pool of investors are happy and these aren't stupid people by any stretch of the imagination. I certainly can't think of many airlines that have finished their first year with a sizable operating profit.
As I mentioned before, I'm not a fan of "pay to fly", but when the alternative is not flying at all, it seems that there are many eager takers out there. Frankly, I would have done it myself, back in the day. Turbine time is gold when climbing the career ladder, twin turbine time much more so. We already have people queuing up (in a different operation) to pay for for type rating ground schools with absolutely no promise of a job whatsoever.
Whether that is good for the industry, well that isn't a simple question in my view.
For some interesting parallels, have a look at what junior doctors have to put up with...
C/R
OK maybe not 100% true, but certainly 90% true. remember, I am not in Oz. Not many turboprops in GA here and you only get a chance if you "know someone".
Yes, it's called business...
The people who recoil are mostly old-schoolers who never had to do it, and who don't get that the world has moved on now. It tends to be more of an issue down here in Oceania, in Europe for example people are far more pragmatic and tend to just accept that this is the way it is done now. If Michael O'Leary (Ryanair CEO) is correct, we will move away from the low cost model in the next few years, if that does indeed happen than I expect we will slowly see the end of the "pay to fly" idea. I also fully expect that less and less people will choose aviation as a career, and this will in turn lead to serious shortages and consequent improvements in terms and conditions - just like the '80's, when my salary jumped three times (by around 35%) in six months as airlines struggled to attract pilots.
Interestingly, I once asked an Asian colleague why so few of his countrymen were attracted to aviation, and why so many expats were flying for his national carrier. He replied that anyone in his country who had the money for flying, just went and got an MBA instead. More money, less hassle, better lifestyle...
As I mentioned before, I'm not a fan of "pay to fly", but when the alternative is not flying at all, it seems that there are many eager takers out there. Frankly, I would have done it myself, back in the day. Turbine time is gold when climbing the career ladder, twin turbine time much more so. We already have people queuing up (in a different operation) to pay for for type rating ground schools with absolutely no promise of a job whatsoever.
Whether that is good for the industry, well that isn't a simple question in my view.
For some interesting parallels, have a look at what junior doctors have to put up with...
C/R
Come on, do you expect me to believe that NOBODY ever got any multi turbine time unless they "bought it"?!! Clearly that is just NOT TRUE! A poor choice of words, on your part I hope. I really can't believe that anyone would believe that!
Think about it - at the heart of the matter, I believe, is Operators figuring out that they can take the impatience of today's candidates (did someone say Gen-Y?), all the way to the bank, like it's currency (the $$$ kind).
The people who recoil are mostly old-schoolers who never had to do it, and who don't get that the world has moved on now. It tends to be more of an issue down here in Oceania, in Europe for example people are far more pragmatic and tend to just accept that this is the way it is done now. If Michael O'Leary (Ryanair CEO) is correct, we will move away from the low cost model in the next few years, if that does indeed happen than I expect we will slowly see the end of the "pay to fly" idea. I also fully expect that less and less people will choose aviation as a career, and this will in turn lead to serious shortages and consequent improvements in terms and conditions - just like the '80's, when my salary jumped three times (by around 35%) in six months as airlines struggled to attract pilots.
Interestingly, I once asked an Asian colleague why so few of his countrymen were attracted to aviation, and why so many expats were flying for his national carrier. He replied that anyone in his country who had the money for flying, just went and got an MBA instead. More money, less hassle, better lifestyle...
Last edited by remoak; 5th Oct 2010 at 00:34.
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Remuneration is Incentive driven.
as an operator, i've also considered this option.
incentive driven does not necessarily = less than award
well not for me anyway, but if i applied for that job, i'd expect it to likely be less than the award.
Not because of how it's worded, but that it's much more likely in todays environment.
i would word it "Remuneration is Incentive driven & above award!"
incentive driven does not necessarily = less than award
well not for me anyway, but if i applied for that job, i'd expect it to likely be less than the award.
Not because of how it's worded, but that it's much more likely in todays environment.
i would word it "Remuneration is Incentive driven & above award!"