Career co-pilots??
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Career co-pilots??
Just having a discussion around the office and have an enquiry about these cadet programs in particular the jetstar scheme. Are they destined to be career co-pilots, as they wont be able to obtain the 500 multi pic??
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Aside from the pay theres no shame in being a co...I've had a gutsfull of people who should know better treating cos like second class citizens..try practicing good CRM by yourself..
..its as much fun as practicing sex by yourself!!
..its as much fun as practicing sex by yourself!!
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In Command under supervision? Doesn't that count?
S2K
No they will just rewrite the regs to accommodate them.
Don't forget to that in other parts of the world (mainly Asia and Europe) people can fly for a career without ever touching a piston or turboprop.
One example is this, a Etihad Captain who has only ever flown jet aircraft other than training.
Captain Blanchard breaking down barriers in UAE
Don't forget to that in other parts of the world (mainly Asia and Europe) people can fly for a career without ever touching a piston or turboprop.
One example is this, a Etihad Captain who has only ever flown jet aircraft other than training.
Captain Blanchard breaking down barriers in UAE
Sophie Blanchard shares the name of a French aviation pioneer and has now become one herself - as the first female captain, or pilot-in-command, for Abu Dhabi's Etihad Airways.
"I am very happy. It still is a pretty macho environment, but my colleagues here encouraged me a lot, and the flight attendants are very proud," said the 33-year-old mother of two, a French citizen.
Blanchard joined Etihad as its first female pilot three years ago and last week took off from Abu Dhabi to London on her first flight as captain, sitting in the left-hand seat of an Airbus A330-200.
Her 18th century namesake was the first professional female balloon pilot, who even attracted the attention of French emperor Napoleon Bonaparte.
The modern-day Blanchard first flew an aircraft when she was 19, then joined her stepfather's Belgium-based freight company as its only female pilot.
"We used to work under very extreme conditions. I was flying a very old DC-8, a four-engine plane that was built in 1962," Blanchard said.
"Very often we just ended up with only three engines left, landing in airports where there was no help, by night, in spite of power cuts and sometimes with a storm. Now, I am actually resting a little," she laughed.
Blanchard later joined an Icelandic cargo company that was leasing planes to Etihad Airways. When United Arab Emirates law was changed to enable women to sponsor their husbands for residence permits, she applied for a position at Etihad and was recruited in May 2007.
"It is a very male-dominated profession," said Captain Richard Hill, the airline's chief operations officer.
"In my career, I have flown with 10 or 15 women," he said. "To survive or get to where they are, they have to be very good at their jobs and they are exceptionally good pilots."
Among Blanchard's battles were changes to her uniform. She now wears better-fitting trousers and does not have to sport a male necktie.
"But I am not sitting in a cockpit to be a woman," she said. "I am here to be a pilot. And our schedule has not been changed to accommodate us."
"It is a challenge to make yourself respected as a woman. But the biggest challenge for me has been to have a family," Blanchard said.
Many Gulf airlines, including Etihad, lack a program by which women can go on maternity leave and undergo the training necessary to get them back up to speed upon their return. Hill did not rule out such a program in the future.
Blanchard's two children were born before she joined Etihad. She raises them with the help of an understanding husband and domestic workers, she said.
The number of female pilots with airlines in the region is on the rise. Since Blanchard's arrival, Etihad has recruited 10 female co-pilots, Hill said.
Low-cost airline Air Arabia, based in Sharjah northeast of Dubai, has two female captains and three co-pilots, according to a spokesman, while Dubai's Emirates Airlines has 16 co-pilots but no captains, a spokeswoman said.
Bahrain's Gulf Air has four co-pilots, a company official said. And Qatar Airways has more than 15 female co-pilots and three female captains, according to one of the captains, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
"It is amazing how well we are treated here. And when Qatari women see me in the cockpit, they suddenly have this big smile on their faces. They are really proud," Blanchard said.
In Saudi Arabia, where women are not allowed to drive cars, Saudi Arabian Airlines recruited its first female pilot in 2005, according to local media.
Hill thinks the number of female pilots will continue to rise. "Ladies will come forward in increasing number to become pilots," he said, adding: "We can see that with our recruitment for our cadet pilot program."
"I am very happy. It still is a pretty macho environment, but my colleagues here encouraged me a lot, and the flight attendants are very proud," said the 33-year-old mother of two, a French citizen.
Blanchard joined Etihad as its first female pilot three years ago and last week took off from Abu Dhabi to London on her first flight as captain, sitting in the left-hand seat of an Airbus A330-200.
Her 18th century namesake was the first professional female balloon pilot, who even attracted the attention of French emperor Napoleon Bonaparte.
The modern-day Blanchard first flew an aircraft when she was 19, then joined her stepfather's Belgium-based freight company as its only female pilot.
"We used to work under very extreme conditions. I was flying a very old DC-8, a four-engine plane that was built in 1962," Blanchard said.
"Very often we just ended up with only three engines left, landing in airports where there was no help, by night, in spite of power cuts and sometimes with a storm. Now, I am actually resting a little," she laughed.
Blanchard later joined an Icelandic cargo company that was leasing planes to Etihad Airways. When United Arab Emirates law was changed to enable women to sponsor their husbands for residence permits, she applied for a position at Etihad and was recruited in May 2007.
"It is a very male-dominated profession," said Captain Richard Hill, the airline's chief operations officer.
"In my career, I have flown with 10 or 15 women," he said. "To survive or get to where they are, they have to be very good at their jobs and they are exceptionally good pilots."
Among Blanchard's battles were changes to her uniform. She now wears better-fitting trousers and does not have to sport a male necktie.
"But I am not sitting in a cockpit to be a woman," she said. "I am here to be a pilot. And our schedule has not been changed to accommodate us."
"It is a challenge to make yourself respected as a woman. But the biggest challenge for me has been to have a family," Blanchard said.
Many Gulf airlines, including Etihad, lack a program by which women can go on maternity leave and undergo the training necessary to get them back up to speed upon their return. Hill did not rule out such a program in the future.
Blanchard's two children were born before she joined Etihad. She raises them with the help of an understanding husband and domestic workers, she said.
The number of female pilots with airlines in the region is on the rise. Since Blanchard's arrival, Etihad has recruited 10 female co-pilots, Hill said.
Low-cost airline Air Arabia, based in Sharjah northeast of Dubai, has two female captains and three co-pilots, according to a spokesman, while Dubai's Emirates Airlines has 16 co-pilots but no captains, a spokeswoman said.
Bahrain's Gulf Air has four co-pilots, a company official said. And Qatar Airways has more than 15 female co-pilots and three female captains, according to one of the captains, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
"It is amazing how well we are treated here. And when Qatari women see me in the cockpit, they suddenly have this big smile on their faces. They are really proud," Blanchard said.
In Saudi Arabia, where women are not allowed to drive cars, Saudi Arabian Airlines recruited its first female pilot in 2005, according to local media.
Hill thinks the number of female pilots will continue to rise. "Ladies will come forward in increasing number to become pilots," he said, adding: "We can see that with our recruitment for our cadet pilot program."
Originally Posted by SPEEDI
Are they destined to be career co-pilots, as they wont be able to obtain the 500 multi pic??
Originally Posted by sixtiesrelic
In Command under supervision? Doesn't that count?
Originally Posted by EJECT EJECT
The problem is as co-pilot you only accrue 50% of total hours, so you need to fly effectively 4000hrs (assuming bare CPL) to have the 2000hrs total experience required.
Originally Posted by EJECT EJECT
The other issue is the 500hrs ME CMD/ICUS as that can only be done with a C&T Captain to count as ICUS and as such would also take along time as the C&T's are usually busy with other more important tasks than ICUSing some F/O.
Originally Posted by Sqwark2000
Cadets will be Junior F/O's cos they don't and won't be able to meet the requirements for an ATPL, which conicidently will prevent them from getting a command.... nice little vicious circle they've got there, don't ya think
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From the CASA website
They need an ATPL and seeing that 250 hours PIC is required and a command endorsement is needed to log ICUS I doubt a command is probable but not impossible. It's up to J* and seeing that they intend to make big $$$ from this cadetship iam guessing the cadets will be shown the door after their contract expires.
In Command Under Supervision (ICUS) Includes all flight time when assigned as co-pilot acting in command under supervision as defined above:ICUS may be logged as follows:
a) in log books with single and multi-engine ICUS columns, the flight time is logged accordingly and is included in the Grand Total Hours;
b) if the log book does not have an ICUS column then ICUS may be logged in the Pilot in Command column as long as it is clearly identified as ICUS and the pilot in command is also identified;
c) alternatively, another unused column may be used to log ICUS
In Command Under Supervision (ICUS) The conditions for logging of ICUS are at CAR 5.40 and include the following:
Applicants must:
a) in log books with single and multi-engine ICUS columns, the flight time is logged accordingly and is included in the Grand Total Hours;
b) if the log book does not have an ICUS column then ICUS may be logged in the Pilot in Command column as long as it is clearly identified as ICUS and the pilot in command is also identified;
c) alternatively, another unused column may be used to log ICUS
In Command Under Supervision (ICUS) The conditions for logging of ICUS are at CAR 5.40 and include the following:
- the pilot flying ICUS must hold either a CPL or an ATPL;
- the pilot flying ICUS must make all decisions relevant to the safe operation of the aircraft;
- the pilot must hold a command aircraft endorsement for that type;
- the pilot must hold a command instrument rating if the flight is conducted under the IFR;
- the operator must permit the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision;
- the pilot in command of the aircraft must be appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft.
Applicants must:
- be at least 21 years of age
- be able to speak, read and understand the English Language
- hold or be eligible to hold a flight radiotelephone operator licence
- have passed a written examination (current exam consists of 7 parts)
- hold or have held a command multi engine instrument rating
- have a total of 1500 hours flight time:
- including at least 750 hours which must include any of the following:
- at least 250 hours of flight time as pilot in command;
- at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision (ICUS);
- at least 250 hours flight time, consisting of at least 70 hours as pilot in command and the balance as ICUS; and
- including at least 750 hours which must include any of the following:
- 200 hours cross country; and
- 75 hours instrument flight time; and
- 100 hours at night as pilot in command or as co-pilot.
- not more than 750 hours flight time as pilot of a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane
- not more than 750 hours of recognised flight time as a pilot of:
- a powered aircraft, or
- a glider (other than a hang glider)
- not more than 200 hours flight time as a flight engineer or flight navigator (in accordance with 5.173(7) of CAR 1988 and the balance of flight time as described in the immediate two points above.
Originally Posted by Bo777
They need an ATPL and seeing that 250 hours PIC is required and a command endorsement is needed to log ICUS I doubt a command is possible.
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70 hrs PIC (i.e. the requirement for a CPL) and the remainder ICUS is acceptable. I would be surprised if Jetstar F/Os only receive co-pilot endorsements.
Squawk2000
Prob depends on where the ATPL is issued. I think you're correct regarding an NZ ATPL not sure about anywhere else. Remember NZ requires a flight test in a pressurised aircraft for the ATPL issue and this fact alone usually means some numbers of P in C hours above the basic CPL issue.
I don't know for sure what they do in OZ but some parts of the world give out the ATPL to CPL holders when they have the exams and the hours which seems a bit weird, since they don't dish out PPL's and CPL in the same manner.
cos they don't and won't be able to meet the requirements for an ATPL
I don't know for sure what they do in OZ but some parts of the world give out the ATPL to CPL holders when they have the exams and the hours which seems a bit weird, since they don't dish out PPL's and CPL in the same manner.
Originally Posted by Bo777
And what happens if the cadets only get a co-pilots endorsement?
Are you saying this has now changed, they only get co-pilot endorsements ?
It's up to J* and seeing that they intend to make big $$$ from this cadetship iam guessing the cadets will be shown the door after their contract expires.
Originally Posted by EJECT EJECT
I will, however, direct you to the CASA sites directions to the logging of flight time which states,
When a co-pilot is logging ICUS, it is counted 100%, not 50% towards the total aeronautical experience.
See Form 196 - "Air Transport Pilot Licence Application"
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...cl/form196.pdf
"at least 250 hours flight time, consisting of at least 70 hours as pilot in command and the balance as ICUS"
This single new sentence in the ATPL requirements means that CASA has effectively given the rubber stamp for cadets to gain a command with MUCH less experience than before.
So much for a regulator focused on safety. More like focused on pleasing airline mates.
This single new sentence in the ATPL requirements means that CASA has effectively given the rubber stamp for cadets to gain a command with MUCH less experience than before.
So much for a regulator focused on safety. More like focused on pleasing airline mates.
Chadzat, you nailed it in one!
Cadets, Jetstar or otherwise will eventually go to command. CASA have assured that. I've only just logged on to this thread and was going to warn about swh, but alas too late. It's been flogged so much in the "REX" thread, it probably deserves to stay there!
My opinion about Career Co-pilots? Well in the not too distant past it wasn't unusual for F/O's to sit in the RHS of a Domestic Jet for a decade or more. The difference then of course is that the F/O was considered a valuable part of the crew. They had finally made it to what many considered to be the Holy Grail, and were remunerated accordingly. While waiting their turn in the RHS, they were able to buy a home, raise a family, take quality vacations and even plan for their retirement. When the opportunity to qualify for command finally came around, the increase in pay usually assured a quality of life in retirement worthy of a lifetime of professional work and dedication.
The trouble with today's new age F/O's is their standing in some companies has been reduced to that of "Apprentice", with a comensurate reduction in income! Methinks some serious social and emotional issues might be afoot in the years to come.
Just what you want in an Airline pilot!
Cadets, Jetstar or otherwise will eventually go to command. CASA have assured that. I've only just logged on to this thread and was going to warn about swh, but alas too late. It's been flogged so much in the "REX" thread, it probably deserves to stay there!
My opinion about Career Co-pilots? Well in the not too distant past it wasn't unusual for F/O's to sit in the RHS of a Domestic Jet for a decade or more. The difference then of course is that the F/O was considered a valuable part of the crew. They had finally made it to what many considered to be the Holy Grail, and were remunerated accordingly. While waiting their turn in the RHS, they were able to buy a home, raise a family, take quality vacations and even plan for their retirement. When the opportunity to qualify for command finally came around, the increase in pay usually assured a quality of life in retirement worthy of a lifetime of professional work and dedication.
The trouble with today's new age F/O's is their standing in some companies has been reduced to that of "Apprentice", with a comensurate reduction in income! Methinks some serious social and emotional issues might be afoot in the years to come.
Just what you want in an Airline pilot!
Originally Posted by Chadzat
This single new sentence in the ATPL requirements means that CASA has effectively given the rubber stamp for cadets to gain a command with MUCH less experience than before
In December 2008 multi-crew pilot licence was introduced into the Australian regulations. The requirements set out in the CARs mirror the changes made to the ICAO Annex 1 - Personnel Licensing.
That is when the changes were made to the CARs allowing up to 180 hours ICUS to count towards the required 250 hours command for the issue of an ATPL.
Alternatively, one can meet the requirements for the issue of an ATPL with little or no command, you can get the ATPL with 500 hour ICUS.
Under CAR 5.214, a MPL can be issued with a minimum of 10 hours command. A pilot can go from MPL to ATPL.
swh- If you'd care to indulge me and others on this forum, what is your personal opinion on what you have just written?
I am not going to put words in your mouth, but do you not think the original intent of the rules to have 250 hours PIC was so that sufficient decision making skills were developed based on experience gained during those 100 hours after a CPL pass?
Do you think ICUS is a sufficient method of gaining those skills?
Was the original intent of the MPL for cadets to gain command having previously only had 10......I cant believe I am typing this, 10 hours of command decision making experience?
I am not going to put words in your mouth, but do you not think the original intent of the rules to have 250 hours PIC was so that sufficient decision making skills were developed based on experience gained during those 100 hours after a CPL pass?
Do you think ICUS is a sufficient method of gaining those skills?
Was the original intent of the MPL for cadets to gain command having previously only had 10......I cant believe I am typing this, 10 hours of command decision making experience?
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only had 10......I cant believe I am typing this, 10 hours of command decision making experience?