Ansett and the Fokker Friendship
I said that in my opinion the captain had been using excessive power while taxiing and dragged the brakes to reduce taxy speed.
"Dunno mate, Captain was taxying it"
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The TAA F27's had NWS on both sides and I seemed it was powered by everything except steam - mechanical, pneumatics, electrical and hydraulics and with all that and the pneumatic brakes, as a brand new FO, I found parking somewhere in the vicinity of the parking stop line was a challenge. The photo of VH-TQS's panel is on display at the TAA Musuem at Airport West and shows the nose wheel steering control wheels with the centering line marked in white on the far sides of the instrument panel.
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Givelda - nice photo which neatly answers my question. Thank you. But I note that this is VH-TQS; initially the F.27's in the VH-TF* range had a simply hideous instrument layout - a fixed back DI (a needle pointed your heading, easy to use only when flying north, no HSI here mate) and the RMI up where DME was.
You forgot to mention that the F.27 had both AC and DC electrics. Ansett F.27's used the accursed Walte Kidde (pnuematic) NWS with no stop at the end of travel whereas you lucky TAA people had rack & pinion steering where it was impossible to reverse the nosewheel.
You forgot to mention that the F.27 had both AC and DC electrics. Ansett F.27's used the accursed Walte Kidde (pnuematic) NWS with no stop at the end of travel whereas you lucky TAA people had rack & pinion steering where it was impossible to reverse the nosewheel.
A rather youthful captain? Here's VH-FNQ at the QAM Caloumdra recently. Subtly different to your photo, note that ghastly AL30J Autopilot (the dreaded "highjack box". Also the Park Brake handle above the NWS tiller which would (painfully) remove your thumbnail if you weren't carefull...
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Yes - the difference between flying the Mk 1 and the various other models we had, including the 600 series was chalk and cheese not to mention the TF's struggling to get above 9000feet in summer up in QLD - and "full over wing" being a typical refueling request if there was any weather involved. Talking about the Ansett NWS on the F27, I once witnessed a skipper under training managing to get the nose wheel to do a complete 360 as he maneuvered to park in Bundy. While Ansett had the "Hijack" autopilot we in Ta Ta's called the S.E.P.2 autopilot the "septic system". And the less said about the fixed card C2 compass system the better - from the TAA training manual....
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The very first time I set foot in an aircraft, was VH-FNE when Queensland Airlines serviced Bundaberg and at the invitation of the skipper Rex Breusch, also from Bundy and who was a WWII Halifax skipper prior to QAL. Sadly, Rex had in incident in an F27 in Bundy in VH-FNU in 1976. Anyway, some years later I also strapped an F27 on (my hearing never recovered) and many more years later, I used the Training Manual to piece together this panel layout - which is still W.I.P. Bit different to the equipment these days.
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the fixed card C2 compass system t
When i first started with Douglas Airways in PNG there were several Bongo Vans that still had those instruments fitted.
Not a single Pilot working at Dz knew how to use them!
From memory, the CP once told me to ignore it as it was next to useless...!
"From memory, the CP once told me to ignore it as it was next to useless...!"
Totally agree - trying to carry out an NDB letdown with a southerly runway was a challenge. In fact, my interview with TAA involved a SIM test in the right side of the old QANTAS Constellation simulator which had one of these things and of course I managed to turn the wrong way. Thinking that "honesty is the best policy", I mentioned this to the SIM Instructor, and he just smiled back knowingly. I had been at the time recently flying something with Flight directors and an HSI and didn't think I would end flying an airline aircraft that had been delivered to the airline when I was four years old! By the way, Pinky we are the same age and I empathise with your comments in your Location description.
"Totally agree - trying to carry out an NDB letdown with a southerly runway was a challenge. In fact, my interview with TAA involved a SIM test in the right side of the old QANTAS Constellation simulator which had one of these things and of course I managed to turn the wrong way. Thinking that "honesty is the best policy", I mentioned this to the SIM Instructor, and he just smiled back knowingly. I had been at the time recently flying something with Flight directors and an HSI and didn't think I would end flying an airline aircraft that had been delivered to the airline when I was four years old! By the way, Pinky we are the same age and I empathise with your comments in your Location description.
short flights long nights
I’m loving this thread. I joined Ansett on the F27. I had been flying a C402 for a private operator…it was equipped to the max… FD, HSI, a very good AP, …when I first saw the F27 flight deck, with a AH the same as the one in the C152 I went solo in…my first thought was, what have I done!!!!
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The report for this incident is worth a read, particularly given more recent events with miss-identification of the correct place for 787 undercarriage pins.
As is so often the case the FNU issue wasn't entirely down to Rex, poor maintenance being a significant factor - both mechanically and visually.
FP.
As is so often the case the FNU issue wasn't entirely down to Rex, poor maintenance being a significant factor - both mechanically and visually.
FP.
The TAA F27's had NWS on both sides
Wasn't TQS the ex Japanese one that had the de-icing panel instructions placard still in Japanese?
Givelda:
Thanks so much for posting those diagrams - all my F.27 manuals/posters have long since disappeared.
A few minor pints, if I may. That God-awful C2 Fixed Compass wasn't just fitted to Mk.I's. Keep in mind here that the original MMA Friendships (all Mk.2's) were configured to the then current TAA standard; indeed the first one,VH-MMS, came off a TAA order registered as VH-TFL. So when VH-MMR arrived from the West in April 1971 and flew around the Melbourne-based Ansett network prior to going into overhaul, I had the "privilege" of sitting behind, and struggling with, that system. What was fascinating was that VH-MMR was still sporting the very different blue MMA "Supersonic Duck" colour scheme; yet nobody noticed!
I'd reckon that most Ansett F.27's had the SEP.2 Autopilot and not the infamous AL30J - certainly all the MM* series and from VH-FNR on.
Ansett F.27's also had the RCA AVQ-47 weather radar. This didn't have a bright scope, so viewing in daylight required a hood thingie (which looked as though it could double as a megaphone) so that one pilot, at least, could see what was going on. The set also needed manual tuning, which inevitably meant that on every line check you'd be asked to demonstrate this! Despite those shortcomings it worked quite well. TAA used an Echo(Elko - help me here?) radar, when I was seconded to MAS in 1972 their Friendships had this set so I got some experience of this but thought it really no better than the AVQ-47.
Ansett's F.27-500's had the very schmick Honeywell Primus radar. Fokker had actually upgraded the cockpit to look more modern - you could argue that any change would make it look more modern! Initially one/two of these Friendships were Melbourne-based; eventually the entire fleet (six) were with ANSW in Sydney. Note that my photo is NOT an Ansett machine.
He was bloody lucky! The not that infrequent situation involved the nosewheel turning through 180 degrees (i.e. backwards) - and then you were well and truly stuck!
Thanks so much for posting those diagrams - all my F.27 manuals/posters have long since disappeared.
A few minor pints, if I may. That God-awful C2 Fixed Compass wasn't just fitted to Mk.I's. Keep in mind here that the original MMA Friendships (all Mk.2's) were configured to the then current TAA standard; indeed the first one,VH-MMS, came off a TAA order registered as VH-TFL. So when VH-MMR arrived from the West in April 1971 and flew around the Melbourne-based Ansett network prior to going into overhaul, I had the "privilege" of sitting behind, and struggling with, that system. What was fascinating was that VH-MMR was still sporting the very different blue MMA "Supersonic Duck" colour scheme; yet nobody noticed!
I'd reckon that most Ansett F.27's had the SEP.2 Autopilot and not the infamous AL30J - certainly all the MM* series and from VH-FNR on.
Ansett F.27's also had the RCA AVQ-47 weather radar. This didn't have a bright scope, so viewing in daylight required a hood thingie (which looked as though it could double as a megaphone) so that one pilot, at least, could see what was going on. The set also needed manual tuning, which inevitably meant that on every line check you'd be asked to demonstrate this! Despite those shortcomings it worked quite well. TAA used an Echo(Elko - help me here?) radar, when I was seconded to MAS in 1972 their Friendships had this set so I got some experience of this but thought it really no better than the AVQ-47.
Ansett's F.27-500's had the very schmick Honeywell Primus radar. Fokker had actually upgraded the cockpit to look more modern - you could argue that any change would make it look more modern! Initially one/two of these Friendships were Melbourne-based; eventually the entire fleet (six) were with ANSW in Sydney. Note that my photo is NOT an Ansett machine.
I once witnessed a skipper under training managing to get the nose wheel to do a complete 360
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Memories not of the aircraft or Ansett but the TAA crews who would attend the annual "Approach Room Disco" parties at Williamtown. Not to mention the bored FA's waiting patiently while the Captain and FO held operational discussions with the late shift ATC before the O Mess bar closed.
GNe
GNe
Tinpis - even later. The F28 was still servicing Broken Hill in 1989. 3hours 30 minutes return flight from Sydney!
Here's a close call for you. F28 on descent into BH was advised of a local light aircraft departure outbound on the same track as the inbound F28. F28 calls the light aircraft and asked if they would maintain 3000ft and they would descend to 4000ft until sighted and confirmed passing. A few minutes later the F28 crew look out and there is a lightie coming straight for them at the same level. Guess what the elevation of BH is? About 1000feet. The light aircraft pilot set zero on the altimeter on the ground at BH!
Here's a close call for you. F28 on descent into BH was advised of a local light aircraft departure outbound on the same track as the inbound F28. F28 calls the light aircraft and asked if they would maintain 3000ft and they would descend to 4000ft until sighted and confirmed passing. A few minutes later the F28 crew look out and there is a lightie coming straight for them at the same level. Guess what the elevation of BH is? About 1000feet. The light aircraft pilot set zero on the altimeter on the ground at BH!
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Just a slight digression; Purely out of interest, does anyone here know how those Fixed card compass thingies worked? How were you supposed to use them?
I’m not sure what you mean by fixed card, but the really primitive ones that I was once familiar with were not too hard to deal with. 000 is the aircraft nose, 180 the tail, 090 the starboard wing (right wing to you children of the magenta) and 270 the port (left, kiddies) wing. The needle(s) point to the ground station. Tracking to or from an NDB is easy enough. Set heading to track desired. As the needle creeps away from 000 or 180 lay off drift in small increments until the needle is steady. Check heading against track required against needle deflection to see how the track looks, correct in desired direction. It’s not all that different to using an RMI, except you add a separate gyro compass to the plot.
Getting a bearing from off-track stations takes some basic mental math. The stuff they taught all 13 year olds in geometry classes back then…
Fixed card combined with azimuth ring gyros which had to be frequently reset for precession - as fitted to ex wartime DC 3’s and early post-war light aircraft - was a combination requiring real mental dexterity. But for this old timer it was not half as hard as mastering modern FMS stuff and learning to use a non QWERTY keyboard to type my way around the sky. Like taildraggers, first learned is often best remembered.
In that regard, at one stage I was flying both DC 3 and F 27 for a UK airline, sometimes one type in the morning and the other in the afternoon. Given a nasty crosswind on a slush covered runway at challenging places like Sumburgh or Bergen, the DC 3 was the better handling aircraft. Much to the amusement of some of my colleagues, if given the choice by rostering, I always opted for the DC 3. I never fully trusted the lightly loaded single nose wheel on the F 27, and what seemed to be less rudder authority, to keep things under control with very strong wind on the beam. The DC 3 never gave me a moment’ s concern on takeoff or landing. It only got tricky to taxi in those conditions, but by then the real scary bits were over. Whereas , I recall nearly running off the runway at night at Amsterdam in an F 27 due to crosswind. Next night in similar conditions I thought I was ready for it, but the same thing happened.
I flew every version of the RR Dart powered F 27 from serial number 05 up to almost the last off the production line before they went to the F 50. There were some really weird customer-specified instrument layouts, even to location of TGT versus torque gauges. Standard fit was torque at the top of the panel, but some airlines considered TGT/JPT as more important and had it at the top. Some customers ordered nav switching which was downright dangerous, and should have never been countenanced by the factory. Certain airlines wanted commonality with older types in their fleet, or perhaps their Chief Pilot was ‘on the spectrum’ and thought everyone else would have the same mental processes.
Nosewheel steering on the RHS was a desirable option, both for safety when training new captains, and to develop first officers. Why Ansett - which claimed to have high standards - never went for it, dunno…
Recently, I donated all my old Fokker, Vickers Viscount, Convair and Boeing manuals to the small museum at St Mary’s in Tassie, so anyone passing through with an interest in these ancient beasts, do drop in to browse. They have lots of other old stuff like handling notes for various warbirds.
Getting a bearing from off-track stations takes some basic mental math. The stuff they taught all 13 year olds in geometry classes back then…
Fixed card combined with azimuth ring gyros which had to be frequently reset for precession - as fitted to ex wartime DC 3’s and early post-war light aircraft - was a combination requiring real mental dexterity. But for this old timer it was not half as hard as mastering modern FMS stuff and learning to use a non QWERTY keyboard to type my way around the sky. Like taildraggers, first learned is often best remembered.
In that regard, at one stage I was flying both DC 3 and F 27 for a UK airline, sometimes one type in the morning and the other in the afternoon. Given a nasty crosswind on a slush covered runway at challenging places like Sumburgh or Bergen, the DC 3 was the better handling aircraft. Much to the amusement of some of my colleagues, if given the choice by rostering, I always opted for the DC 3. I never fully trusted the lightly loaded single nose wheel on the F 27, and what seemed to be less rudder authority, to keep things under control with very strong wind on the beam. The DC 3 never gave me a moment’ s concern on takeoff or landing. It only got tricky to taxi in those conditions, but by then the real scary bits were over. Whereas , I recall nearly running off the runway at night at Amsterdam in an F 27 due to crosswind. Next night in similar conditions I thought I was ready for it, but the same thing happened.
I flew every version of the RR Dart powered F 27 from serial number 05 up to almost the last off the production line before they went to the F 50. There were some really weird customer-specified instrument layouts, even to location of TGT versus torque gauges. Standard fit was torque at the top of the panel, but some airlines considered TGT/JPT as more important and had it at the top. Some customers ordered nav switching which was downright dangerous, and should have never been countenanced by the factory. Certain airlines wanted commonality with older types in their fleet, or perhaps their Chief Pilot was ‘on the spectrum’ and thought everyone else would have the same mental processes.
Nosewheel steering on the RHS was a desirable option, both for safety when training new captains, and to develop first officers. Why Ansett - which claimed to have high standards - never went for it, dunno…
Recently, I donated all my old Fokker, Vickers Viscount, Convair and Boeing manuals to the small museum at St Mary’s in Tassie, so anyone passing through with an interest in these ancient beasts, do drop in to browse. They have lots of other old stuff like handling notes for various warbirds.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 5th May 2023 at 14:47. Reason: DC 3 betterer
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Ah, the good old days when the F27 ex Melbourne used to overnight at Mildura, and a flight attendant would bring a few of the unused hot meals over to the FSU.
The meals were pretty good in those days too
The meals were pretty good in those days too