VFR Operations At Tamworth

[Jazzy78910]

I visited Tamworth around a month back (VFR) and the controllers where nothing but helpful. I entered the CTR in poor vis and received terrific assistance both in the air and on the ground after landing.
Incidentally, on departure I did not make a call and they never seemed bothered by it.

[Chief galah]

To me this is the conflict between the old and the new.

What is the purpose of a departure report?

In the days when things were simpler, the departure report was ostensibly to establish a separation standard. It's a throw back from the two airline agreement where most of our non-radar departure standards evolved.

It was the norm for non-radar CTRs. These standards were applicable to other users as well but there was a lot less of them then.

We have not moved forward in this respect since then. The reasons for reports are far less valid. There is little to be gained from departure reports for VFR because separation need not be applied.

Even for single IFR movements, the report is for internal ATC coordination only.

So, as in many aspects of our modern yen for change, many things stay the same.

[Jabawocky]

Here are a few interesting points.

CTR at TW is to 3500 so if below this, no report required.

If you were given a clearance not above 4000 you would possibly be in CTA then you must give a report.

Depends on what your clearance actually was.

Its a stupid situation either way.

On the YBSU case, it seems CTR is up to A045........so no report required! What a cockup ...... more standards have to be better!

So what exactly happened Dick?


Ohh and the TWR has no reliable surveillance below 5500'

[pill]

Special treatment maybe Dick, long memories. I havn't flown a VH rego for 15 years and still associate your name with tipping the system on it's ear. Maybe for better, maybe for worse. LHR opens ones eyes to what can be done.

[Dangly Bits]

Jabawocky,

Just found that the SU CTA starts at 1500' in the Designated Airspace Handbook! How many fly with one of those in the cockpit?

Why are the CTR altitudes all different by the way? I can understand ex-GAAP's but why at somewhere like Rockhampton would it be as low as 1'000?

DB

[Jabawocky]

Dangly

My Jepps show YBSU at CTA45 ...note however unlike some other places like Launie where it shows the CTR clearly, there is no CTR depicted for YBSU.....(I am tired and Bundy Red is helping!)

That being said why is TW at 3500'....when its meant to be CTR to 1500AGL that should mean 3000' at TW so there is no standard standard.

Problem here is this, ATC want a departure report as you are out of sight and close to steps if you are cleared out at higher levels, or maybe even departing when in the CTA not CTR, but with varying standards pilots will be unsure. Just like the YMAV setup compared to over in the west.

So while I think who really needs departure reports....it should be all or nothing. Saves everyone the confussion.

It may just be that the ATC has stuffed up here, but it may also be Dick was given a clearance that allowed him a lot of lattitude, and by default that meant CTA as well therefore a report required. Even if Dick only intended on buzzing out at A025.

The good old US NAS and FAA D

[Chief galah]

Is there anywhere in the all powerful US NAS procedures that a departure report is required?

[rmcdonal]

That being said why is TW at 3500'....when its meant to be CTR to 1500AGL that should mean 3000' at TW so there is no standard standard.

Jaba I would suggest it has something to do with making the controllers lives easier with the VFR departure lanes out of Tamworth into the training area. If the level was lower then a departure would be required from each of the CT4s heading out for a sorti. That extra 500ft would give them a buffer.

[rattly_spats]

Same experience at YMAY

Magnificent cavok day – on departure the Air Traffic Controller wanted to know why I did not give a departure report. Being VFR I told him I understood it was the rules. He promptly told me that the Enroute Supplement makes it clear that departure reports are required for VFR in certain circumstances.

I had a very similar experience at YMAY back in mid-June. I asked the controller (it was quiet day) and he explained:

• No departure call required when departing the zone (CTR) directly into class G -- in other words, below 2000ft.
• Departure call is required when departing the zone into the overlying class-D CTA, even though I was only in it for a few miles before popping out into class-G and departing to the west at 2500.

I apologised, and I think I probably wasn't the first to have failed to understood this subtlety. I subsequently wrote to the CASA E-Learning people to suggest they update their teaching material to make it clearer -- but I don't think they have yet.

[uncle8]

The controllers are watching

The ATCs watch you take off and set course, why can't they make up a departure time, the same as they, most likely, do if you will be exiting into G?

[peuce]

A couple of reasons I guess, including.

• They may be busy and not see you depart overhead
• You may not be in radar coverage, so your Search And Rescue watch is based on your flight planned estimate for the next reporting point. That estimate is worked out by adding YOUR departure time to YOUR estimated time interval. Everyone's working off the same estimate then.( you don't want them chasing you for a position report because they had a different dep time than you)

[VH-XXX]

I had a very similar experience at YMAY back in mid-June.

Albury is in a class of it's own. I recently tracked over Albury in CTA. They asked if I had a VOR. I said "I have VOR but haven't used it before as I have never flown this aircraft before, thus would prefer GPS" They responded that I HAD to choose my outbound VOR radial to obtain a clearance and that I HAD to use the VOR. I stated again that I was fitted with GPS, to which they replied that I wasn't allowed to use it.

WTF???? @#%$@$

[Jabawocky]

That's not unique to Albury.

ASA have been waiting on CASA to approve the use of GPS for navigation such as that. But don't hold your breath .

J

[Dick Smith]

What altitude were you flying at? Were you VFR?

This may start to expose some of the lies we are told.

[VH-XXX]

If that's directed at me, 6,500ft VFR in an IFR aircraft.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Well, well,.......

Something like
"......some of the lies we are told." =

'Your Safety will be enhanced and it will cost you less'......

Cheers

(dash, followed by 23 dits suitably spaced, dash.!!!)

[Jabawocky]

So Dick, what was the story with the clearance you were given out of TW, do you recall if it was a "Not Above A###"?

Just curious to get that one answered before we get onto the XXX incident.

[QSK?]

VH-XXX:

Albury is in a class of it's own. I recently tracked over Albury in CTA. They asked if I had a VOR. I said "I have VOR but haven't used it before as I have never flown this aircraft before, thus would prefer GPS" They responded that I HAD to choose my outbound VOR radial to obtain a clearance and that I HAD to use the VOR. I stated again that I was fitted with GPS, to which they replied that I wasn't allowed to use it.

and

If that's directed at me, 6,500ft VFR in an IFR aircraft

That's because GPS can only be used by VFR flights as a supplementary aid to visual navigation and not as the sole source of navigation, so AY tower is technically correct.

AIP indicates that when flying VFR, a pilot has the choice of either navigating by visual reference to the surface or through having access to a full time licensed flight navigator, an approved self contained navigation system or a ground based radio navigation system. GPS is not considered to be an approved self-contained navigation system as it relies on externally generated radio signals to determine the position of the aircraft.

So the only options available to you were to accept a geographic tracking clearance (cloud permitting) from the controller or a clearance based on a radio navigation aid (if you are rated to use the aid)

Not realistic or practical in today's navigation environment but, unfortunately, them's the rules!

[Dick Smith]

VH XXX Did you get the clearance you requested?

[peuce]

Whoo up there boy ... we haven't got the answer from you yet, Dick.

You wanted an answer to why you were quizzed at Tamworth ...we are trying to help.

What was your cleared level at Tamworth? We all need to know, so it's cleared up.

You can start another thread with the VH-XXX issue if you want ....