Delays at YSBK
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Delays at YSBK
Would just like to express my disappointment in the new class D procedures at YSBK.
It took 32 minutes the other day to get airborne IFR with 2 IFR departures ahead when ground said there would only be a 10 min delay.
A couple of days later I tried to downgrade to VFR for the departure to reduce the delay and was asked:
"Are you departing visual, VFR departure or downgrading to VFR"
Not quite sure how I departed in the end but did get airborne with less delay.
Arrivals back at BK have been more difficult as well as I have been told to remain clear of the zone because there was another IFR aircraft making an approach. (It was night VMC and a couple of aircraft were conducting circuits). So next night I advised Radar that I would downgrade to VFR approaching 2RN and they replied that my IFR identification was terminated and to squawk 1200 about 30 miles from 2RN.
The next VMC night I was one of 2 IFR aircraft approaching 2RN and we both decided to downgrade to VFR to reduce any delay and were both told to squawk either 1200 or 3000. (The choice was up to us)
It seems to me that these new class D procedures have in fact reduced safety by forcing pilots to be looking in the cockpit changing codes rather than looking out the window at one of the most congested reporting points.
They certainly have resulted in significant delays for departing and arriving IFR aircraft if there happens to be more than one in the zone in VMC.
Reduced safety and increased delays, what was the point?
It took 32 minutes the other day to get airborne IFR with 2 IFR departures ahead when ground said there would only be a 10 min delay.
A couple of days later I tried to downgrade to VFR for the departure to reduce the delay and was asked:
"Are you departing visual, VFR departure or downgrading to VFR"
Not quite sure how I departed in the end but did get airborne with less delay.
Arrivals back at BK have been more difficult as well as I have been told to remain clear of the zone because there was another IFR aircraft making an approach. (It was night VMC and a couple of aircraft were conducting circuits). So next night I advised Radar that I would downgrade to VFR approaching 2RN and they replied that my IFR identification was terminated and to squawk 1200 about 30 miles from 2RN.
The next VMC night I was one of 2 IFR aircraft approaching 2RN and we both decided to downgrade to VFR to reduce any delay and were both told to squawk either 1200 or 3000. (The choice was up to us)
It seems to me that these new class D procedures have in fact reduced safety by forcing pilots to be looking in the cockpit changing codes rather than looking out the window at one of the most congested reporting points.
They certainly have resulted in significant delays for departing and arriving IFR aircraft if there happens to be more than one in the zone in VMC.
Reduced safety and increased delays, what was the point?
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I've personally departed IFR many times under the Class D procedures with little to no delays at various times throughout the day. The one or two times I have had slight delays have been no worse than the few times I was delayed under the GAAP procedures. Its probably worth remembering that its not necessarily BK's problem as they often need to await departure instructions for you from Sydney.
As for the transponder bit, i'd suggest the old ANC - Aviate Navigate Communicate... i.e. transponder is probably under the "Communicate" tag... the aeroplane is not going to fall out of the sky if you dont immediately set the 3000 code, so perhaps it'd be easier to establish visual separation (if required) from the other IFR guy, make your calls, then once you're all set up on the way into BK, set the 3000 code.... and if you get too busy with the aviating and navigating, then again, the aircraft isnt going to fall out of the sky because you still have your discreet code set....
As for the transponder bit, i'd suggest the old ANC - Aviate Navigate Communicate... i.e. transponder is probably under the "Communicate" tag... the aeroplane is not going to fall out of the sky if you dont immediately set the 3000 code, so perhaps it'd be easier to establish visual separation (if required) from the other IFR guy, make your calls, then once you're all set up on the way into BK, set the 3000 code.... and if you get too busy with the aviating and navigating, then again, the aircraft isnt going to fall out of the sky because you still have your discreet code set....
The Bankstown situation is stupid. You only have to talk to the controllers to figure that out.
Just do a VFR departure, then resume IFR outside the zone. That will give you a minimum delay.
Just do a VFR departure, then resume IFR outside the zone. That will give you a minimum delay.
iogrsw
Go and read the books mate, the tower did not say that to you!
There are a number of ways to dep BK they are all in AIP
IFR - on a Bankstown SID into Class "C"
- on a Visual DEP into Class"C"
- on a VFR DEP into Class"C"
- on a visual DEP OCTA
- on a VFR DEP OCTA
Use the correct phraseology to tell the tower what you want to do and you wont have any problems, if you dont use the correct phrase they will have to clarify what you want to do.
"Are you departing visual, VFR departure or downgrading to VFR"
There are a number of ways to dep BK they are all in AIP
IFR - on a Bankstown SID into Class "C"
- on a Visual DEP into Class"C"
- on a VFR DEP into Class"C"
- on a visual DEP OCTA
- on a VFR DEP OCTA
Use the correct phraseology to tell the tower what you want to do and you wont have any problems, if you dont use the correct phrase they will have to clarify what you want to do.
Coral
excatly what is a "fundamentalist controller" would that be like a fundamentalist pilot? I dont think ive ever come across one,. as for crims why dont you go to the ATSB or CASA or the police.
Sounds like your just fishing to me
Oh, I know, the fundamentalist controllers are doing it wrong - "basically criminals".
Sounds like your just fishing to me
I think the controllers at BK are doing a great job with Class D.
And my experience has generally been no greater delay for IFR arrivals or departures in D compared to GAAP.
But the way Class D is being done (including departures via the SID and VFR Departures) bears little relationship with what AIP says. I was hoping the latest amendment to AIP would fix all the ambiguities, inacuracies and inappropriate stuff - but in vain ...
But at least the guys and gals in the tower are getting on with it and making it work
Ted
And my experience has generally been no greater delay for IFR arrivals or departures in D compared to GAAP.
But the way Class D is being done (including departures via the SID and VFR Departures) bears little relationship with what AIP says. I was hoping the latest amendment to AIP would fix all the ambiguities, inacuracies and inappropriate stuff - but in vain ...
But at least the guys and gals in the tower are getting on with it and making it work
Ted
SuperStinker, I don't think coral was having a go at ATC. More at the shifty airspace changes forced upon us.
What exactly has the change to Class D got us? Good question.
What exactly has the change to Class D got us? Good question.
AWOL fly much at BK do you? I too have been delayed at BK but not very often and not for very long.
The frustration in the controllers voices at BK is plain and clear for all to hear its not helped that CASA seem oblivious to the impact CLASS D has had.
Coral seems to me to be having a go at ATC hence ASA for influencing CASA and the minister and I think coral is wrong and inflamatory.
In answer to your question D has got us nothing except decreased safety and decreased respect all round
The frustration in the controllers voices at BK is plain and clear for all to hear its not helped that CASA seem oblivious to the impact CLASS D has had.
Coral seems to me to be having a go at ATC hence ASA for influencing CASA and the minister and I think coral is wrong and inflamatory.
In answer to your question D has got us nothing except decreased safety and decreased respect all round
Ah, but at least we are harmonised !
So it is about time pilots "harmonized" as well.
Those of you who are canceling IFR are doing exactly what happens in US, when VMC prevails. A common sense thing to do.
If you insist on remaining IFR, expect delays, because procedural separation is the order of the day.
Tootle pip!!
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SuperStinker
I think "basically criminal" is in quotation marks becuase, I believe, they were the words a well-known peanut butter salesman used to describe Australian controllers.
Coral might be fishing but he's using somebody else's bait, if you will.
Coral might be fishing but he's using somebody else's bait, if you will.
SuperStinker a quick look at my profile would tell you I am a Controller at Jandakot so I am all too familiar with what the controllers are dealing with 
Leadsled,
You are probably theoretically correct, however, isn't it a pity that we have to forsake the protection that IFR provides ... to make the system work?
If you insist on remaining IFR, expect delays, because procedural separation is the order of the day.
AWOL The question was, Fly much at BK do you? Or maybe I should ask how long since you have held a tower rating at BK. Or are you only talking with regard to JT. I cant see any simalarities between JT and BK apart from the class of airspace.
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IOGRSW where are you? You started this thread with your alleged 32 min delay for two A/C every one else seems to think there are not many delays.
as for your comments about class "D" reducing safety. I agree!
as for your comments about class "D" reducing safety. I agree!
SS you are clearly an expert on ATC so I shall bow out now. Just to put your mind at ease I have flown at BK once (yes as a pilot) and been up to the tower a couple of times (no not rated there) and talk to a few of the blokes there off my course. But obviously us ATC don't know what common issues we have. Good luck with your ground delays.
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IFR and OCTA
I have been operating in/out of BK heaps of times with the new rules, and have not really noticed any difference.
Why don't you give "Departing IFR, will remain OCTA, and will pick up a clearance en-route?"scenario a try?
That method has worked for years, and still does.
The tower will usually give you a code, and it doesn't take long to get a clearance from departures or centre.
Give it a go!!
Why don't you give "Departing IFR, will remain OCTA, and will pick up a clearance en-route?"scenario a try?
That method has worked for years, and still does.
The tower will usually give you a code, and it doesn't take long to get a clearance from departures or centre.
Give it a go!!
Last edited by kimwestt; 15th Aug 2010 at 10:10. Reason: editorial
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Delays at Bankstown
The rules are set by CASA and applied by the ATC staff of Airservices Australia. There is no point in complaining in this forum about the situation. You need to get your facts together (hopefully as a united force of expert pilots) and approach CASA about the rules. This forum can't really help any of us. I will say however, that sometimes we tend to approach our flying like we drive our cars; impatiently and with some aggression. We pilots need to accept that there are rules that we must adhere to and there are rules that the ATC staff need to apply. If we or the ATCs choose not to accept the rules, then there are adverse consequences of that decision. Again, if we want the rules changed, approach CASA with workable and safe alternatives. This is really how it all began post WW2 when civil aviation became subject to such things as separation standards in the lateral, longitudinal and vertical modes.
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HAHA Its funny watching you guys fight over some stupid **** that really doesnt matter. I mean if you dont like the way things are going in BK ,why dont you just go somewhere else!! :P