Is RACWA on finals? YOU WERE WARNED!!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
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I used to be a member some time ago (1991) and I thought the place was a brilliant club. It's members flew, had social events ("Formal - from the waist up" a charity event I attended), drank in the bar, had fly-ins etc. It also had excellent and very professional instructors. It was an excellent club and even Pommies were felt welcome.
But even then, there was a certain element of commercial aviation which compromised the members interests. Basically, "for the benefit of the members," a few fully IFR twins were purchased for non-instructional duties, ostensibly for private hire. But only a few members got their hands on them. The few that did had to be in the "inner circle" or the club within the club because they were the senior instructors who were able to do the charter work - which had to be done to pay for the wretched things. There was virtually no benefit for the members in having these private hire/charter twins.
Then the level of commercial operations was so low that there was little associated liability. The problem with having a commercial arm within a club is that the members end up providing its capital, subsiding it or under-writing it's losses. Remember, a club is where the shareholders are the customers as well. Unfortunately, as the commercial operation expands, the members' liabilities also grow and if the management are not careful will threaten the very existence of the club. A classic example of this was with the club at Launceston. They bought a Grand Commander "for the members" but to pay for it, took on an early morning newspaper run. Not surprisingly there were penalties associated with non-preformance so when their aircraft went tech. they had to sub-charter, at a huge cost. Also, just to make sure the aircraft didn't get broken in club use, members weren't allowed to hire it. Some benefit!
So where am I going? Well it is vital for each club to remember why it is exists. It for the benefit of its members. It is only a business in so far as has to balance its books so that it can stay around to provide services for it's members. An aero club is not there to be a charter operator, search and rescue organisation or airline. By all means provide spare aircraft and maintenance to third parties, but make sure that when these activities are undertaken, the associated liabilities are well understood.
PM
But even then, there was a certain element of commercial aviation which compromised the members interests. Basically, "for the benefit of the members," a few fully IFR twins were purchased for non-instructional duties, ostensibly for private hire. But only a few members got their hands on them. The few that did had to be in the "inner circle" or the club within the club because they were the senior instructors who were able to do the charter work - which had to be done to pay for the wretched things. There was virtually no benefit for the members in having these private hire/charter twins.
Then the level of commercial operations was so low that there was little associated liability. The problem with having a commercial arm within a club is that the members end up providing its capital, subsiding it or under-writing it's losses. Remember, a club is where the shareholders are the customers as well. Unfortunately, as the commercial operation expands, the members' liabilities also grow and if the management are not careful will threaten the very existence of the club. A classic example of this was with the club at Launceston. They bought a Grand Commander "for the members" but to pay for it, took on an early morning newspaper run. Not surprisingly there were penalties associated with non-preformance so when their aircraft went tech. they had to sub-charter, at a huge cost. Also, just to make sure the aircraft didn't get broken in club use, members weren't allowed to hire it. Some benefit!
So where am I going? Well it is vital for each club to remember why it is exists. It for the benefit of its members. It is only a business in so far as has to balance its books so that it can stay around to provide services for it's members. An aero club is not there to be a charter operator, search and rescue organisation or airline. By all means provide spare aircraft and maintenance to third parties, but make sure that when these activities are undertaken, the associated liabilities are well understood.
PM
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Today I recieved an Avdata bill for landing my personal aircraft at Murray Field supporting a club fly in to their own airfield and yes I am currently a member of RACWA.
No bloody wonder the place is in trouble, set up a club day at your own facility then charge private owners ( club members) to participate and support the club.
Easy answer is I will get the landing fee back by not renewing my members ship, I don't need this sort of stupidity in my life and other members are denied the fellowship that comes from participation at club events.
Good one RACWA.
No bloody wonder the place is in trouble, set up a club day at your own facility then charge private owners ( club members) to participate and support the club.
Easy answer is I will get the landing fee back by not renewing my members ship, I don't need this sort of stupidity in my life and other members are denied the fellowship that comes from participation at club events.
Good one RACWA.
Joker, did you ever consider that that procedure was put in place by the crew that stuffed the club and who have now gone, or that it might have been a mistake?
Have you rung up AE or JD to ask for an explanation?
Have you rung up AE or JD to ask for an explanation?
HI 'Joker',
I'm with the Cap'n on this one.....
I'm sure you could also get your money back by pointing out the error and asking for it.....
Or, being an 'active and supporting member' you could call it a 'donation'
or whatever from an 'enthusiastic member'.
(tax deductible..??)
If you enjoyed your day, then it was no doubt, worth it....no??
Cheers
I'm with the Cap'n on this one.....
I'm sure you could also get your money back by pointing out the error and asking for it.....
Or, being an 'active and supporting member' you could call it a 'donation'
or whatever from an 'enthusiastic member'.
(tax deductible..??)
If you enjoyed your day, then it was no doubt, worth it....no??
Cheers
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Doesn't appear to be in error:
Royal Aero Club of Western Australia - Murrayfield Airport Details & Charges
Royal Aero Club of Western Australia - Murrayfield Airport Details & Charges
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Fokker those charges were quietly added without much communication to members, just like everytime that bump up the charges.
I've only been a member for 2 years, but I've seen at least 25% increase in aircraft hire rates and 50% increase in instructor fees.
I'm sorry but inflation is at 4% and the dollar is damn high! and during GFC oil was dirt cheap.
Whilst a commercial organisation has the right to amend prices without notice, RACWA is a CLUB, for the benefit of members, and not for making a return on investment for shareholders.
I was very pleased to read the new President's message in the last edition of tarmac.
But I have to ask, how the hell did the club get in so much bad financial shape?
Mid last year, I was told by my instructor that, C172 G1000 arriving soon, then the dates got pushed back, even in December I was told they should be arriving this month. And then all of the sudden its, we've gone on a junket to the US and we are getting Diamond 40s because some became available and we were able to jump the queue (yes they are nice, I did my DA40 conversion this year). And more yes they are ordered and when they are due, its sorry, we couldn't get the money. Now I doubt the DA40s are still available even if we had the money, in fact, its doesn't even seem like having money for DA40s is even an issue anymore, as it seems that we might not even have enough money to survive let alone buy new planes.
I've only been a member for 2 years, but I've seen at least 25% increase in aircraft hire rates and 50% increase in instructor fees.
I'm sorry but inflation is at 4% and the dollar is damn high! and during GFC oil was dirt cheap.
Whilst a commercial organisation has the right to amend prices without notice, RACWA is a CLUB, for the benefit of members, and not for making a return on investment for shareholders.
I was very pleased to read the new President's message in the last edition of tarmac.
But I have to ask, how the hell did the club get in so much bad financial shape?
Mid last year, I was told by my instructor that, C172 G1000 arriving soon, then the dates got pushed back, even in December I was told they should be arriving this month. And then all of the sudden its, we've gone on a junket to the US and we are getting Diamond 40s because some became available and we were able to jump the queue (yes they are nice, I did my DA40 conversion this year). And more yes they are ordered and when they are due, its sorry, we couldn't get the money. Now I doubt the DA40s are still available even if we had the money, in fact, its doesn't even seem like having money for DA40s is even an issue anymore, as it seems that we might not even have enough money to survive let alone buy new planes.
Hi htran,
Re your 'But I have to ask, how the hell did the club get in so much bad financial shape?'
In hindsight, its no real mystery....now!!
Like thieves in the night - they came - and now they are gone...
You're 100% correct of course, in that it is a CLUB.
A CLUB exists for its members....
I do not know what part of THAT, the 'previous managers' did NOT understand.
However, 'things is the way they is'.
Cheers.
Re your 'But I have to ask, how the hell did the club get in so much bad financial shape?'
In hindsight, its no real mystery....now!!
Like thieves in the night - they came - and now they are gone...
You're 100% correct of course, in that it is a CLUB.
A CLUB exists for its members....
I do not know what part of THAT, the 'previous managers' did NOT understand.
However, 'things is the way they is'.
Cheers.
Join Date: Mar 2002
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htran: I am not a member of RACWA and I am not privy to RACWA accounts.
However, the cost of running a GA business in Australia is out of control.
- The $AUD may be strong but the cost of Avgas and oil is still much the same!.
- wages for Instructors are higher. Office staff and maint. staff wages are higher.
- being a large business, I'm sure RACWA is subject to WA payroll tax and work cover.
- RACWA's old/high-time fleet would be very expensive to maintain.
- YPJT is not a cheap place to operate from.
Australia is fast becomming the 'Europe' of Asia with regard to the cost of living. Australia is an expensive place to live and to do business.
It won't be long before Australians are going to NZ for flight training much in the same way Europeans go to the USA for flight training.
Once forex is taken into account(A$1.00=NZ$1.29), some schools in NZ offer Instructors for $A35 per hour! (RACWA $100 per hour). An NZ CPL can be completed on a C150!.
Solution?. Sorry. Wish I had one...
However, the cost of running a GA business in Australia is out of control.
- The $AUD may be strong but the cost of Avgas and oil is still much the same!.
- wages for Instructors are higher. Office staff and maint. staff wages are higher.
- being a large business, I'm sure RACWA is subject to WA payroll tax and work cover.
- RACWA's old/high-time fleet would be very expensive to maintain.
- YPJT is not a cheap place to operate from.
Australia is fast becomming the 'Europe' of Asia with regard to the cost of living. Australia is an expensive place to live and to do business.
It won't be long before Australians are going to NZ for flight training much in the same way Europeans go to the USA for flight training.
Once forex is taken into account(A$1.00=NZ$1.29), some schools in NZ offer Instructors for $A35 per hour! (RACWA $100 per hour). An NZ CPL can be completed on a C150!.
Solution?. Sorry. Wish I had one...
R-F-G flying was unrealistically cheap for too long hence all the ex-businesses; but if you don't have a competent manager then yes these things can get away from you for sure. Flying here is still good value compared to a lot of places. But RACWA's huge price hikes don't seem to have helped them much because people can't see a better product to go with them, just a huge bill for the same old same old..
Added to the costs you have mentioned climbing interest rates would be very painful for those with a big burden of bad debt. RACWA's level of debt would be fine...if they had say ten brand new training aircraft to show for it, although I would have thought the current fleet was amortised decades ago so where was the set-aside for fleet replacement? It's not like they would have been taxed on it like other businesses
? 20-25% per year fleet replacement would be realistic to keep on top of things and within warranty.
Added to the costs you have mentioned climbing interest rates would be very painful for those with a big burden of bad debt. RACWA's level of debt would be fine...if they had say ten brand new training aircraft to show for it, although I would have thought the current fleet was amortised decades ago so where was the set-aside for fleet replacement? It's not like they would have been taxed on it like other businesses
? 20-25% per year fleet replacement would be realistic to keep on top of things and within warranty.
short flights long nights
If they had spent the money on aircraft iso that stupid WAAC things might be different
Hi htran,
Re your -"RACWA is a CLUB, for the benefit of members, and not for making a return on investment for shareholders."
'Tis unconstitutional for RACWA to be 'making a return on investment for shareholders'....
LINK; Racwa Constitution
Item 3 para (1) refers........
Cheers.
Re your -"RACWA is a CLUB, for the benefit of members, and not for making a return on investment for shareholders."
'Tis unconstitutional for RACWA to be 'making a return on investment for shareholders'....
LINK; Racwa Constitution
Item 3 para (1) refers........
Cheers.
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Griffo,
First, there are no shareholders.
Secondly, income is synonymous with profit in an accounting sense.
Are you trying to say that activities of RACWA cannot be profitable?
PS - I have no interests in RACWA.
First, there are no shareholders.
Secondly, income is synonymous with profit in an accounting sense.
Are you trying to say that activities of RACWA cannot be profitable?
PS - I have no interests in RACWA.
Not at all Mr F,
1 - Yes. You are correct - there are no 'shareholders'.
I am responding to a suggestion of returning a profit to 'shareholders' - the
constitution does not allow for 'shareholders' as such, and further states that any profits shall be returned to all members equally - or words to the effect....
AS you probably already know......
What gave you the idea for the question you have asked/statement you have made..??
I gave you the link. Please do me the honour of reading the item before responding in such a way..!
Happy landings.
1 - Yes. You are correct - there are no 'shareholders'.
I am responding to a suggestion of returning a profit to 'shareholders' - the
constitution does not allow for 'shareholders' as such, and further states that any profits shall be returned to all members equally - or words to the effect....
AS you probably already know......
What gave you the idea for the question you have asked/statement you have made..??
I gave you the link. Please do me the honour of reading the item before responding in such a way..!
Happy landings.
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Yes I rang RACWA and got the CEO who pointed out to me that I was obliged to pay and that was that !!!!!
Did I "enjoy" the day, got a bloody big ding in an expensive propellor for my effort, provided entertainment for others, gave 4 hours time on ground for them, never again !
Did I "enjoy" the day, got a bloody big ding in an expensive propellor for my effort, provided entertainment for others, gave 4 hours time on ground for them, never again !
Ah Well.....
Fortunately for the Club, Mr 'J' , he's no longer there.
And I fear the Club will be undergoing some 'dramatic' changes because of......
Cheers
Fortunately for the Club, Mr 'J' , he's no longer there.
And I fear the Club will be undergoing some 'dramatic' changes because of......
Cheers
Joker, for your info:
Royal Aero Club of Western Australia - Murrayfield Airport Details & Charges
You're complaining about $5?
Royal Aero Club of Western Australia - Murrayfield Airport Details & Charges
You're complaining about $5?