Is RACWA on finals? YOU WERE WARNED!!
I stand by what I said. Either you are running a club or a business. It is almost impossible to run them together
It is not impossible and is quite common. Yes some fail. So do most businesses that start if you read the statistics on those sort of things.
I am interested the fact that WAAC has the 3rd CFI and CGI in a very short time.
Icarus:
You may be right. I guess it is for RACWA members to comment. I'd add that in good times the effect of these matters is masked.
I note that you suggest daily minimums seem to apply to "crusty old Sunfish". Do they equally apply to the commercial students? My observation would that they seem not to.
Fortunately for me, I've never experienced that issue. I've always booked well in advance and received what I've asked for. I would also observe that touring makes about the same daily aircraft utilisation as training. It would seem to be few training aircraft that would make more than Three - Four hours a day once briefings, etc are taken into account.
I wish RACWA all the best. I'm merely pointing out obvious points of friction.
ignores the fact that RACWA has been doing this succesfully for decades. The balance is achieved by careful management of the flying program. For starters most private hirers want the aircraft on weekends, full time students week days, a perfect fit you might say. If crusty old Sunfish wants an aircraft for two weeks, well the fleet size needs to accomodate that. RACWA has a large fleet and there are daily minimum flying requirements for a two week hire so that neither the club or the member misses out.
You seem to suggest that the RACWA model is flawed. Well it has survived for a very long time. Recent events surrounding WAAC and debt have made a major contribution to the present situation along with a downturn in flying generally.
You seem to suggest that the RACWA model is flawed. Well it has survived for a very long time. Recent events surrounding WAAC and debt have made a major contribution to the present situation along with a downturn in flying generally.
I note that you suggest daily minimums seem to apply to "crusty old Sunfish". Do they equally apply to the commercial students? My observation would that they seem not to.
Fortunately for me, I've never experienced that issue. I've always booked well in advance and received what I've asked for. I would also observe that touring makes about the same daily aircraft utilisation as training. It would seem to be few training aircraft that would make more than Three - Four hours a day once briefings, etc are taken into account.
I wish RACWA all the best. I'm merely pointing out obvious points of friction.
I note that you suggest daily minimums seem to apply to "crusty old Sunfish". Do they equally apply to the commercial students? My observation would that they seem not to
If a commercial or even PPL student if flying "full time" and hiring an aircraft for a three hour nav then the aircraft is probably still hireable around that booking for about eight to nine hours (or more). If however Sunfish takes his girlfriend away for two weeks in an aircraft but the destination is only say two hours from home base then for two weeks the aircraft may do four hours flying. Not a good idea. So the club can (but does not always) require a three hour hire per day. Not an unreasonable request.
Look at the hire car analogy. If you drive two hours from the depot and keep the car for two weeks, the hire car company gets paid everyday, whether or not you use the car. Not unreasonable on an aircraft worth two to four times the cost of a car that you pay something to have the aircraft with you. If you think this is somehow unfair then what about the other members who can no longer use this aircraft whilst it sits on the ground ticking away its' annual time?
At previous aero clubs that I have managed / instructed at - a minimum of 3 hrs / day, paid - whether the aeroplane actually flew the time or not.
When I have hired aircraft for long trips / extended periods (eg BK to PNG return) this requirement was easily met.
My 'best' customers seemed to get priority....
When I have hired aircraft for long trips / extended periods (eg BK to PNG return) this requirement was easily met.
My 'best' customers seemed to get priority....
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SUNFISH - As I see it the WAAC students are what the only members that fly. In order for the club to survive, all members should be flying. As I remember reading in the Tarmac Topics magazine a few months ago, the former chairman Jack Gregor said; 'a lack of flying over the weekend by members'.
I can't understand why there are so many members complaining about WAAC students taking aircraft. There are plenty of opportunities for members to fly along side the students. If the students are flying they are constanlty putting money back in the club. If the other members of the club had the drive to help RACWA survive they need to be flying, not sittting around!!
The students are only there during weekdays, most of the members of the club work during the week and therefore have the opportunity the fly on the weekend. If they wish to fly during the week there is plenty of opportunity to take an aircraft wheather it be a C172 or M20J. The students are not constantly flying and it is easily booked around. The flying sequedual as I see of the students is quite flexiable. Often they can be seen sitting around while the fleet sits there.
I can't understand why there are so many members complaining about WAAC students taking aircraft. There are plenty of opportunities for members to fly along side the students. If the students are flying they are constanlty putting money back in the club. If the other members of the club had the drive to help RACWA survive they need to be flying, not sittting around!!
The students are only there during weekdays, most of the members of the club work during the week and therefore have the opportunity the fly on the weekend. If they wish to fly during the week there is plenty of opportunity to take an aircraft wheather it be a C172 or M20J. The students are not constantly flying and it is easily booked around. The flying sequedual as I see of the students is quite flexiable. Often they can be seen sitting around while the fleet sits there.
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If the other members of the club had the drive to help RACWA survive they need to be flying, not sittting around!!
When I learnt to fly it was economically feasible to rent a plane for an hour a fortnight. These days you can buy a return trip to the Eastern States for the cost of doing a scenic flight over Perth. For the cost of a ****ty Nav to the wheatbelt and back you can buy an overseas holiday. Just to buy the Air Law & PPL etc books alone is the cost of an overseas holiday. Common sense would tell you that average people aren't interested in blowing huge chunks of cash on flying to Narrogin. No offence intended to the good folk of Narrogin...
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Van Gough is right. If you do a JT-RTI-JT the landing fees and Airservices charges make up almost half the cost of the flight. (depending what you fly of course) If you take out those charges, the cost becomes a good deal more attractive. But the truth is, people these days don't have the disposable income they used to.
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Oh and everytime you go to RACWA for an AFR, it includes a brief, a nav, debrief and a smidge over $500.
Irregardless of currency, i was told by an instructor, a nav of some significant length was required.
In that i have no problems with a AFR costing what it costs. It was clear that RACWA was simply milking the process for a short term gain, such that they could pay the weeks bills.
Incidentally i went to TAC, spent not quite so much $$, but got attentive service, an AFR stamp, and left looking back over my shoulder thinking "i enjoyed that experience".
Irregardless of currency, i was told by an instructor, a nav of some significant length was required.
In that i have no problems with a AFR costing what it costs. It was clear that RACWA was simply milking the process for a short term gain, such that they could pay the weeks bills.
Incidentally i went to TAC, spent not quite so much $$, but got attentive service, an AFR stamp, and left looking back over my shoulder thinking "i enjoyed that experience".
At previous aero clubs that I have managed / instructed at - a minimum of 3 hrs / day, paid - whether the aeroplane actually flew the time or not.
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Sorry Arnold, that sort of expectation is not sustainable. An assett sitting on the ground for 5 days not being utilised or being paid for would be commercially diastrous.
Today, most have min daily charges whether you fly or not, surely you can understand that.
Today, most have min daily charges whether you fly or not, surely you can understand that.
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On an aside.....Anyone know how much the club is paying to have its fleet proffessionally cleaned by a JT contractor, instead of the club members, lazy arsed instructors, and staff lending a hand and boositng the club spirit and washing them ?
I reckon 30 aircraft x $50 / wash = $$ they dont have at the moment for these luxuries!
But what do i know, as long as they look nice and shiny someone will come and fly them.
I reckon 30 aircraft x $50 / wash = $$ they dont have at the moment for these luxuries!
But what do i know, as long as they look nice and shiny someone will come and fly them.
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What the Club Committee President summed up doesn't spell good days ahead for the club...
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ge-waac-6.html
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ge-waac-6.html
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Regarding hiring out aircraft for members cross countries.
In my day we could take an aircraft away as long as it had reasonable utilisation.
It obviously deprived others the use of the aircraft but if it was planned long enough in advance it was a case of 'first in'.
I am thinking a 172 or 177 where the bread and butter aircraft in those days were the 150's. I think the deal was that we had done our time in the 150, spent our money... the reward being access to the cruisers. Sure reasonable utilisation was expected, but I would think 5 or 6 hours flying over a 4 day break would be ok.
In those days the domestic flights were expensive so 3 or 4 guys cost sharing worked out very good for all. Even more so in NZ if crossing the strait was involved.
As an IA I get to do annual inspections or Annual reviews on a variety of machines. I can tell you now there are many machines about which are only achieving between 15 and 40 hours a year.
I know of one private owner, he has his own strip also.. on his doorstep (literally). He tries to fly every weekend.. and he is still in the large group of customers in that low utilisation bracket.
A few, very few, training machines may achieve 100 hours per month. Over one year though the same aircraft would more likely return 600 hours or so. One high utilisation fleet I am aware of did 10,000 hours each over the period 1980 to 2005.
I think 3 hours per day is tough.. I would go looking elsewhere to borrow an aircraft.
In my day we could take an aircraft away as long as it had reasonable utilisation.
It obviously deprived others the use of the aircraft but if it was planned long enough in advance it was a case of 'first in'.
I am thinking a 172 or 177 where the bread and butter aircraft in those days were the 150's. I think the deal was that we had done our time in the 150, spent our money... the reward being access to the cruisers. Sure reasonable utilisation was expected, but I would think 5 or 6 hours flying over a 4 day break would be ok.
In those days the domestic flights were expensive so 3 or 4 guys cost sharing worked out very good for all. Even more so in NZ if crossing the strait was involved.
As an IA I get to do annual inspections or Annual reviews on a variety of machines. I can tell you now there are many machines about which are only achieving between 15 and 40 hours a year.
I know of one private owner, he has his own strip also.. on his doorstep (literally). He tries to fly every weekend.. and he is still in the large group of customers in that low utilisation bracket.
A few, very few, training machines may achieve 100 hours per month. Over one year though the same aircraft would more likely return 600 hours or so. One high utilisation fleet I am aware of did 10,000 hours each over the period 1980 to 2005.
I think 3 hours per day is tough.. I would go looking elsewhere to borrow an aircraft.
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Anyone know how much the club is paying to have its fleet proffessionally cleaned by a JT contractor?
That's not really still happening is it!?!! Mind you the average RACWA instructor is a little too highly skilled to operate a bucket and sponge. I'm sure with a little extra training they might be able to tell a WAAC student how to do it though.
In any event, no amount of spit and polish is going to make RWQ look airworthy.
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Minimum daily hires
Smaller member-only operations can afford lower minimum daily hires, and these minima are often configured to incentivise flying during quiet times. I don't know of any organisation with absolutely no minimum daily hours, but I know of one club at JT that only requires one hour for a whole day on weekdays and 2 hours on weekends. Racwa has more commercial constraints by virtue of its mix of training and member flying, and more overheads by virtue of its excellent staff and facilities. I presume they've done the sums and can't afford to hire out an aircraft for a whole day and only be paid 1 hour.
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instructor syllabus
Hi All, just to let you know that CASA has aknowledged BR's hard work and will be adopting Racwa's Instructor training course syllabus as the industry standard!. SO....... some good things do come out of the place
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Notoospiucy - yes it is. I watch with bewilderment, as the RACWA instructors gaze out of the 1st floor windows as the menials wash their aircraft. Then again, have a look at the carpark. These kids don't even respect their own cars to wash them either 
But excellent news on the instructor course syllabus. But how does this help RACWA ? More importnatly, the instructors may be given all these whizz bang tools, but if they haven't the skills, understanding or ability to teach and learn from it...then whats the point. Rubish in...and look around...rubbish out !
But excellent news on the instructor course syllabus. But how does this help RACWA ? More importnatly, the instructors may be given all these whizz bang tools, but if they haven't the skills, understanding or ability to teach and learn from it...then whats the point. Rubish in...and look around...rubbish out !
instead of the club members, lazy arsed instructors, and staff lending a hand and boositng the club spirit and washing them ?These kids don't even respect their own cars to wash them either
If the club instructors are casual why should they clean aircraft, they get paid to instruct. If they are full time then maybe they can do other things. Can you really imagine them getting into overalls to clean and then a prospective student walks up and reception can only find one instructor on the ground..."hang on he/she will just need to have a shower and get changed".... come on get real. Most of these guys do other things to help around the club, washing aeroplanes aside.
You mentioned club members doing it. have YOU volunteered your time? If not why not? Not a member? Then stop pontificating from on high about how it SHOULD be.
You are either part of the problem or part of the solution. It is very clear where you sit.
Oh and everytime you go to RACWA for an AFR, it includes a brief, a nav, debrief and a smidge over $500.
Nothing wrong in what the instructor told you at all.
Look at what it inlcudes. Have you called aplumber to your house recently? Do you know what that costs just to get him there?
You cannot have both sides here. You claim the club is badly run and then when they try to charge correctly for an AFR which requires whatever it requires (READ THE CAR) then you shout price gouging.
spent not quite so much $$
some good things do come out of the place
It is all about point of view.
Racwa has more commercial constraints by virtue of its mix of training and member flying, and more overheads by virtue of its excellent staff and facilities.