Tomohawk Trainer down in North Island
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Conflict alert
All those happened while I was overseas, which explains why I didn't know! ZK-USA is fair enough, the others aren't really relevant as they are more to do with the mishandling of the engine failure than a simple inattention to airspeed - remember the context of the discussion is student pilots and training. The Fouga was a loss of control after entering cloud, nothing to do with stalling (it was in a spiral dive when it impacted the Firth of Thames).
The Tiger Moth stalled while performing a climbing turn during a competition.
Biggles78
Well, I for one do not fly around in confined valleys while reading a map! You look out the front and make sure that you always have an escape route, even if that means a reversal turn. What you absolutely DON'T do is continue down what is clearly a blind valley past the point where you can't get out of it. The map is used for overall situational awareness and planning, sure, but that's it (well that's how I do it, anyway).
It's similar, not as high and not as extensive of course, but mountain ranges are mountain ranges pretty much everywhere, and the same rules apply.
There was a big high sitting over the area, perfect cloudless blue skies and virtually no wind.
I hear what you are saying about the dud chart, but really flying around in valleys is all about local knowledge, and always making sure you have an escape route. Airmanship, in other words.
All those happened while I was overseas, which explains why I didn't know! ZK-USA is fair enough, the others aren't really relevant as they are more to do with the mishandling of the engine failure than a simple inattention to airspeed - remember the context of the discussion is student pilots and training. The Fouga was a loss of control after entering cloud, nothing to do with stalling (it was in a spiral dive when it impacted the Firth of Thames).
The Tiger Moth stalled while performing a climbing turn during a competition.
Biggles78
They were flying through the valleys and end up in a one where they were unable to climb or turn out of it. Now this thread and some of the contributors will babble on about the inappropriate low level training, poor airmanship, low time inexperienced instructors, commercial aspects etc etc were the cause. However it was later revealed that the CHART was at fault. It had been drawn WRONG and showed that the valley was open at the far end.
I am not familiar with the mountainous areas of the North Island but I can imagine that it is going to be much the same as where I flew since it is after all part of the same mountain range. Therefore, a similar problem could have been a contributing factor.
Can't remember reading anything about the weather but if there was turbulance then during a couple of heavy bounces the "navigation finger" could easily slip and point to the wrong valley.
I hear what you are saying about the dud chart, but really flying around in valleys is all about local knowledge, and always making sure you have an escape route. Airmanship, in other words.
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If we have pilots flying low level up a valley reading a map..... talk about the blind leading the blind. As someone who does allot of mountain flying training with our well trainied CPLs I can see how they can get into trouble, its hard to believe they could in a big valley on a perfect day but let me tell you, they have no idea, its not thier fault, just bad training. Be nice if they were taught to land and take off properly as well, thats another story!!!
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Remoak said
Occurrence Report Details
Report Details
Investigation 97-002
Cessna 310Q ZK-KIM, loss of control after take-off, near Queenstown Aerodrome, 3 January 1997
On Friday 3 January 1997, at 1357 hours, Cessna 310Q aeroplane ZK-KIM, on a private flight to Ardmore, was turning after take-off from Queenstown when it entered a spin or spiral dive which led to a collision with the ground. The pilot and all five passengers were killed.
The position of the Remarkables Range, in relation to runway 14, restricted the space available and precluded a normal visual horizon reference for the pilot during the turn.
Inadvertent mishandling of the aircraft by the pilot probably resulted from his inexperience and lack of mountain flying skills. Misloading could have adversely affected the handling qualities of the aircraft.
No engine mishandling there
the others aren't really relevant as they are more to do with the mishandling of the engine failure than a simple inattention to airspeed
Report Details
Investigation 97-002
Cessna 310Q ZK-KIM, loss of control after take-off, near Queenstown Aerodrome, 3 January 1997
On Friday 3 January 1997, at 1357 hours, Cessna 310Q aeroplane ZK-KIM, on a private flight to Ardmore, was turning after take-off from Queenstown when it entered a spin or spiral dive which led to a collision with the ground. The pilot and all five passengers were killed.
The position of the Remarkables Range, in relation to runway 14, restricted the space available and precluded a normal visual horizon reference for the pilot during the turn.
Inadvertent mishandling of the aircraft by the pilot probably resulted from his inexperience and lack of mountain flying skills. Misloading could have adversely affected the handling qualities of the aircraft.
No engine mishandling there
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Occurrence Report Details
Report Details
Investigation 90-005T
Piper PA 38 ZK-KVM, collision with terrain while low flying, Pohangina Valley, 24 November 1990
The pilot was one of a group of seventh formers camping in the vicinity of a local airstrip. He and a friend left the group in the afternoon to hire an aircraft. Returning to the area, he flew two passes over the airstrip from the north east before making a third low level flight from the west up the centre-line toward his classmates on the ground. Just before reaching them he turned the aircraft to enter the valley of the Matanganui stream. Shortly afterwards witnesses observed the aircraft in a wing-over manoevre and saw it nose-dive out of sight, followed by the sound of an impact. The passenger was killed and the pilot seriously injured in the accident.
Report Details
Investigation 90-005T
Piper PA 38 ZK-KVM, collision with terrain while low flying, Pohangina Valley, 24 November 1990
The pilot was one of a group of seventh formers camping in the vicinity of a local airstrip. He and a friend left the group in the afternoon to hire an aircraft. Returning to the area, he flew two passes over the airstrip from the north east before making a third low level flight from the west up the centre-line toward his classmates on the ground. Just before reaching them he turned the aircraft to enter the valley of the Matanganui stream. Shortly afterwards witnesses observed the aircraft in a wing-over manoevre and saw it nose-dive out of sight, followed by the sound of an impact. The passenger was killed and the pilot seriously injured in the accident.
This current accident also occurred in the 'Pohangina Valley' area and it was also reported that the occupants were initially placed at a 'christian camp'. (camp mentioned above?)
you can follow the Pohangina River from the west side of the ranges NE to the eastern side of the ranges. Although I haven't personally flown this route I presume it would be a good one to practice valley flying as it gets you from one side of the ranges to the other - part of the CPL criteria? The river branches early on on the western side and the branch leads to a dead end. If you take the wrong turn - eventually hill blocking way!!
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No engine mishandling there
In any case the Queenstown accident wasn't necessarily a stall and/or spin.
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Remoak said
From the accident report -
ZK-FGA was fitted with the lower powered engines and the airspeed would have
decayed significantly during the climb. Given the consistency of witnesses’
recall, it is highly probable that once immersed in cloud the aircraft departed from
controlled flight and entered a spin. The relatively low altitude of the aircraft at
the time and retention of some of the fuel content in the tip-tanks then made
recovery a most unlikely task.
My bolding.
From the accident report -
Cessna 310Q aeroplane ZK-KIM, on a private flight to Ardmore, was turning after take-off from Queenstown when it entered a spin or spiral dive which led to a collision with the ground.
My bolding. Your comment - Fair enough but having spoken to people that were witness to this accident, I would say 'spin'. Increased angle of bank while climbing......
Anyway - we digress
The Fouga was a loss of control after entering cloud, nothing to do with stalling (it was in a spiral dive when it impacted the Firth of Thames).
ZK-FGA was fitted with the lower powered engines and the airspeed would have
decayed significantly during the climb. Given the consistency of witnesses’
recall, it is highly probable that once immersed in cloud the aircraft departed from
controlled flight and entered a spin. The relatively low altitude of the aircraft at
the time and retention of some of the fuel content in the tip-tanks then made
recovery a most unlikely task.
My bolding.
In any case the Queenstown accident wasn't necessarily a stall and/or spin.
Cessna 310Q aeroplane ZK-KIM, on a private flight to Ardmore, was turning after take-off from Queenstown when it entered a spin or spiral dive which led to a collision with the ground.
My bolding. Your comment - Fair enough but having spoken to people that were witness to this accident, I would say 'spin'. Increased angle of bank while climbing......
Anyway - we digress
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remember the context of the discussion is student pilots and training."
certainly over here in Godzone I can't remember the last time there was a stall/spin accident that killed someone
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There have been two tiger fatalaties in the last several years from spinning and non recovery.
Taramanui as has been previously mentioned (which occured during climb out, false horizion, etc, etc) and another one in Canterbury probably three years ago. I have not seen the actual report on the second one, but one suspects that it was the classic decreasing airspeed on climb out, lets make a turn, oh sh!t... That particular pilot had delcined offers to engage in spin training.
Love the wandering off topic!
Taramanui as has been previously mentioned (which occured during climb out, false horizion, etc, etc) and another one in Canterbury probably three years ago. I have not seen the actual report on the second one, but one suspects that it was the classic decreasing airspeed on climb out, lets make a turn, oh sh!t... That particular pilot had delcined offers to engage in spin training.
Love the wandering off topic!
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conflict alert: I was under the impression the the only river (in that part of the world) to originate on the eastern side and go through the ranges to the west, is the Manawatu.
Can you tell me which map shows the Pohangina River going through the ranges to the eastern side ?.
Can you tell me which map shows the Pohangina River going through the ranges to the eastern side ?.
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try a VNC 1:250000 C2. Your correct it does split from a peak so not one continuous flow - however the 'continuation' of the flow from the split to the east appears to be in the same valley system. As previously mentioned, I have never flown this route so don't know if its suitable for practice of bad weather flying.
Post script
I just google earthed it, doesn't look very suitable in the latter stages. Looking at the lay of the land in the vicinity of the reported crash site - can't help but wonder Practice engine failure (undershot) anyway, time will tell.
Post script
I just google earthed it, doesn't look very suitable in the latter stages. Looking at the lay of the land in the vicinity of the reported crash site - can't help but wonder Practice engine failure (undershot) anyway, time will tell.
Last edited by conflict alert; 16th Jul 2010 at 21:19.
