Question on buying a plane
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Tried that Tankengine. Wanted to try Gliding as it looks a hell of a lot of fun, i went down to a large gliding field to ask a few questions. Don't think i've ever come across a bigger bunch of self inflating w&nkers in my life. Was told in no uncertain terms that i would be rubbish and the senior instructor delighted in telling me just how many of his students couldn't go solo as they weren't good enough (Says more about the instructor me thinks!). Never went back.
Anyways, back on topic...... I did the sums on aircraft ownership. All in a Cessna 120 was going to cost me $23,600 a year to 'enjoy' (100hrs). That's a lot of coin.....and i reckon GA private ownership wouldn't come much cheaper. Eeek.
I rent!
Anyways, back on topic...... I did the sums on aircraft ownership. All in a Cessna 120 was going to cost me $23,600 a year to 'enjoy' (100hrs). That's a lot of coin.....and i reckon GA private ownership wouldn't come much cheaper. Eeek.
I rent!
Last edited by Wanderin_dave; 20th Jun 2010 at 05:34.
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Sorry to hear that Dave, try going to another field [the slightly smaller ones a bit further from capital cities are sometimes better!]
Unfortunately the W&^%**s are in all types of aviation.
PM me if you want more specifics.
One thing about gliding is that many clubs train in the equivalent of 1960s Vee Dubs as trainers, it is a different world racing V8 Supercars!
Unfortunately the W&^%**s are in all types of aviation.
PM me if you want more specifics.
One thing about gliding is that many clubs train in the equivalent of 1960s Vee Dubs as trainers, it is a different world racing V8 Supercars!
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As I've been looking into ownership myself very extensively lately, let me give you the figures I have. This is for a Cessna Skymaster on the N-reg.
Insurance for low time pilot: $5500/year
Engine rebuilds @ $26000/engine x2, which on a 1500hr TBO, equals $34/hour.
Annual varies, but never less than $4000 and most certainly closer to $10000/year on an older aircraft.
Hangarage obviously varies, but count on $250-500/month.
Fuel at about 20GPH is in the US about $100/hr.
So at the max you're looking at $48300 a year. Now, you might not fly that much and you might get hangarage on the cheap and you might lean out on every flight to save fuel, and you're still looking at an easy $30000/year. That's a lot. Most Symaster owners in the US averages about $30000/year. This I have straight from the horse's mouth.
For a single obviously you can get away with probably half that, maybe slightly more.
However, let's look at what 200 hrs for a rental aircraft would cost you in the UK: I pay about £127/hr for a 12.000hr C152. That's £25400/year. Now, I know I'm comparing apples and oranges here with £ and $, but in no way would it be cheaper to rent at that usage. In fact, the break even happens as low as about 40hrs. So not only is it more expensive, but it has all the inconveniences of not getting access, not being able to tour for long trips etc etc.
And if you really want to own on the cheap, get an old Jodel or a Taylor Monoplane or something and you could probably fly for less than £3000 a year. No rental could beat that.
Insurance for low time pilot: $5500/year
Engine rebuilds @ $26000/engine x2, which on a 1500hr TBO, equals $34/hour.
Annual varies, but never less than $4000 and most certainly closer to $10000/year on an older aircraft.
Hangarage obviously varies, but count on $250-500/month.
Fuel at about 20GPH is in the US about $100/hr.
So at the max you're looking at $48300 a year. Now, you might not fly that much and you might get hangarage on the cheap and you might lean out on every flight to save fuel, and you're still looking at an easy $30000/year. That's a lot. Most Symaster owners in the US averages about $30000/year. This I have straight from the horse's mouth.
For a single obviously you can get away with probably half that, maybe slightly more.
However, let's look at what 200 hrs for a rental aircraft would cost you in the UK: I pay about £127/hr for a 12.000hr C152. That's £25400/year. Now, I know I'm comparing apples and oranges here with £ and $, but in no way would it be cheaper to rent at that usage. In fact, the break even happens as low as about 40hrs. So not only is it more expensive, but it has all the inconveniences of not getting access, not being able to tour for long trips etc etc.
And if you really want to own on the cheap, get an old Jodel or a Taylor Monoplane or something and you could probably fly for less than £3000 a year. No rental could beat that.
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For those of you debating ownership versus hiring have a look at this guys spreadsheet;Estimated Costs of Aircraft Ownership
I'm currently looking at a 50/50 partnership in a Maule M5-235c in NZ with a mate whose wife is an accountant.
Our numbers based on 200 hours / year work out at $50/week/each to cover fixed costs & $125/ hr flight time.This equates to a total cost of $151/hr on 200hrs utilisation or $1.08/mile.
Versus renting similar aircraft (if you can hire one) breakeven hours are 126/yr.
Based on 100hrs/yr this equates to $192/hr or breakeven @ 140 hours.
These figures do not take into account the cash up front but if you'd happily shell out for a new family car or boat do you calculate money out of the bank/finance costs/km?
If you're serious about your aviation and do the hours I believe ownership can be the way to go,sometimes in life you have to be prepared to roll the dice
I'm currently looking at a 50/50 partnership in a Maule M5-235c in NZ with a mate whose wife is an accountant.
Our numbers based on 200 hours / year work out at $50/week/each to cover fixed costs & $125/ hr flight time.This equates to a total cost of $151/hr on 200hrs utilisation or $1.08/mile.
Versus renting similar aircraft (if you can hire one) breakeven hours are 126/yr.
Based on 100hrs/yr this equates to $192/hr or breakeven @ 140 hours.
These figures do not take into account the cash up front but if you'd happily shell out for a new family car or boat do you calculate money out of the bank/finance costs/km?
If you're serious about your aviation and do the hours I believe ownership can be the way to go,sometimes in life you have to be prepared to roll the dice
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@ $70 an hour you are dreaming.
Surely your hangar in Sydney area is $40 or more a week and fuel near $20 an hour.
How many hours is that based on per annum?
Surely that STOL thing would have set you back $60k+
Surely the interest alone would be near $50 a week ??????
Surely your hangar in Sydney area is $40 or more a week and fuel near $20 an hour.
How many hours is that based on per annum?
Surely that STOL thing would have set you back $60k+
Surely the interest alone would be near $50 a week ??????
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less than half the cost was financed, maintenance is spares only, (im qualified) fuel at 17 ltrs / hr Mogas, and covered by vehicle lease accounts with the private practice. insurance is relatively cheap, below $2K (+500 hr pilots, no training use) hangarage is the biggest cost.
on the spreadsheets, exact hourly cost came in at 72.35 per hour. based on running the 912ULS to TBO exchange. average usage so far has been 30 hrs a month.
Edit, correction, re-read my figures, and forgot to add in the fact is co owned, cost are 72.35 each.. so total is $144.70 Per Hour.
pretty much on par with going hire rates for a similar aircraft.
on the spreadsheets, exact hourly cost came in at 72.35 per hour. based on running the 912ULS to TBO exchange. average usage so far has been 30 hrs a month.
Edit, correction, re-read my figures, and forgot to add in the fact is co owned, cost are 72.35 each.. so total is $144.70 Per Hour.
pretty much on par with going hire rates for a similar aircraft.
Last edited by Ultralights; 20th Jun 2010 at 14:35.
Grandpa Aerotart
Best way to work out if you can afford an aeroplane for 'fun' is
1/. Can you pay cash for it?
Borrowing money for a depreciating asset, unless there is a business/tax write off available, is to my mind silly. Mind you people do it with cars all the time so WTF would I know?
2/. If you need to put the aircraft on line you cant afford it.
Aeroclubs/flying schools COST you money.
3/. Take the typical average fuel flow and multiply by the cost of fuel and then multiply that answer x3
You'd be amazed how close that is to spot on for 100 hrs/annum utilisation. If you're REALLY lucky it will be slightly conservative.
Calculating the annual cost of ownership is relatively easy - accepting that maintenance can be a case of 'how long is a piece of string' sometimes but the figures below worked out pretty well for my Bonanza before I pulled it out of the air for the restoration. It would work equally well for anything in that class/age group assuming a good clean airframe - C210 etc.
Fixed costs (what you pay whether the aircraft flies or not.)
Insurance $4000
Hangarage $4800
Maintenance $6000 (indicative only - some years may be 3k and some might be 10k)
Total/annum $14800/100hrs= $148/hr
Direct operating costs.
Fuel 55 liters/hr @ 1.74/liter $96/hr
Engine/prop $25/hr
Total $121/hr
All up $269/hr. Funnily enough (55x1.74)x 3 = $287/hr.
You will have some extras, if IFR, for airways/terminal/GPS data base and you're gonna pay for landing at most places. Probably $1000/annum but its too variable for me to bother with for the purposes of this post - its $10/hr so not a huge expense and likely swamped by just the variation in the cost of avgas from one location to another. If VFR most of the time and you don't land at places like BN/SYD/BK etc too often it will be less. If this number is even a vague concern don't buy an aeroplane
To my mind making all sorts of extra calculations for 'opportunity cost of capital' - what you MIGHT have done with the money instead of buying an aeroplane - is dumb. You either want an aeroplane or you don't. As we have seen recently around the world, and its a nightmare coming to Australia soon, you can lose money on anything, including real estate - so why not lose it on an aeroplane, at least they are fun
Of course if you borrow the money you need to add that annual expense. Banks are getting stung VERY badly at the moment at repo auctions so don't expect a bank to give you the cash unless you have LOTS of home equity and use that - and maybe not then.
The fixed costs are what it costs to own the aeroplane each year so the way I think about these things (I try VERY hard NOT to think about it too much) the first hr each year costs $15000 and every hour thereafter costs circa $120-130. This is what is so silly about people who own aeroplanes and don't fly them much. Flying the aircraft is the 'cheap' part. The only way to make it LOTS cheaper is to have a couple of like minded mates and enter a partnership - $15k becomes $5k. You can also save a fair bit on owner assisted maintenance - aircraft maintenance is VERY labour intensive and labour is expensive. You can easy save a couple of grand a year doing all the grunt work yourself - if the maintenance shop doesn't allow that take your aeroplane elsewhere.
200 hrs per year won't double that maintenance figure but increase it by 50% or so. In that figure above a 'annual' is about $3000 and the rest is 'stuff'. 15k might become 18k and /200 = $90/hr + DOCs.
The only REAL rule is buy the best airframe you can find/afford - go to whatever expense is necessary to establish the condition of the airframe - everything else gets replaced eventually anyway. You don't save much, if anything, buying a 'cheap' aeroplane - sooner or later you will pay - either up front for a really good airframe or 10 years down the track when you get to restore it
In my opinion NOTHING approaches the satisfaction of flying your own aeroplane where you want and when you want - and that is worth something too.
The rule of 3xFF in $ works pretty well across the board assuming you're not a LAME/don't have the skills+tame LAME to sign stuff off for you. Something that burns 30 liters/hr (Super Cub for instance) is going to run $155-160/hr. 40 liters/hr (Warrior/C182) about $210/hr for 100 hrs/annum.
A Baron/C310? - (120x1.74)x 3 = $575
Like Forkie said above, 2 Bonanzas flying in formation.
1/. Can you pay cash for it?
Borrowing money for a depreciating asset, unless there is a business/tax write off available, is to my mind silly. Mind you people do it with cars all the time so WTF would I know?
2/. If you need to put the aircraft on line you cant afford it.
Aeroclubs/flying schools COST you money.
3/. Take the typical average fuel flow and multiply by the cost of fuel and then multiply that answer x3
You'd be amazed how close that is to spot on for 100 hrs/annum utilisation. If you're REALLY lucky it will be slightly conservative.
Calculating the annual cost of ownership is relatively easy - accepting that maintenance can be a case of 'how long is a piece of string' sometimes but the figures below worked out pretty well for my Bonanza before I pulled it out of the air for the restoration. It would work equally well for anything in that class/age group assuming a good clean airframe - C210 etc.
Fixed costs (what you pay whether the aircraft flies or not.)
Insurance $4000
Hangarage $4800
Maintenance $6000 (indicative only - some years may be 3k and some might be 10k)
Total/annum $14800/100hrs= $148/hr
Direct operating costs.
Fuel 55 liters/hr @ 1.74/liter $96/hr
Engine/prop $25/hr
Total $121/hr
All up $269/hr. Funnily enough (55x1.74)x 3 = $287/hr.
You will have some extras, if IFR, for airways/terminal/GPS data base and you're gonna pay for landing at most places. Probably $1000/annum but its too variable for me to bother with for the purposes of this post - its $10/hr so not a huge expense and likely swamped by just the variation in the cost of avgas from one location to another. If VFR most of the time and you don't land at places like BN/SYD/BK etc too often it will be less. If this number is even a vague concern don't buy an aeroplane
To my mind making all sorts of extra calculations for 'opportunity cost of capital' - what you MIGHT have done with the money instead of buying an aeroplane - is dumb. You either want an aeroplane or you don't. As we have seen recently around the world, and its a nightmare coming to Australia soon, you can lose money on anything, including real estate - so why not lose it on an aeroplane, at least they are fun
Of course if you borrow the money you need to add that annual expense. Banks are getting stung VERY badly at the moment at repo auctions so don't expect a bank to give you the cash unless you have LOTS of home equity and use that - and maybe not then.
The fixed costs are what it costs to own the aeroplane each year so the way I think about these things (I try VERY hard NOT to think about it too much) the first hr each year costs $15000 and every hour thereafter costs circa $120-130. This is what is so silly about people who own aeroplanes and don't fly them much. Flying the aircraft is the 'cheap' part. The only way to make it LOTS cheaper is to have a couple of like minded mates and enter a partnership - $15k becomes $5k. You can also save a fair bit on owner assisted maintenance - aircraft maintenance is VERY labour intensive and labour is expensive. You can easy save a couple of grand a year doing all the grunt work yourself - if the maintenance shop doesn't allow that take your aeroplane elsewhere.
200 hrs per year won't double that maintenance figure but increase it by 50% or so. In that figure above a 'annual' is about $3000 and the rest is 'stuff'. 15k might become 18k and /200 = $90/hr + DOCs.
The only REAL rule is buy the best airframe you can find/afford - go to whatever expense is necessary to establish the condition of the airframe - everything else gets replaced eventually anyway. You don't save much, if anything, buying a 'cheap' aeroplane - sooner or later you will pay - either up front for a really good airframe or 10 years down the track when you get to restore it
In my opinion NOTHING approaches the satisfaction of flying your own aeroplane where you want and when you want - and that is worth something too.
The rule of 3xFF in $ works pretty well across the board assuming you're not a LAME/don't have the skills+tame LAME to sign stuff off for you. Something that burns 30 liters/hr (Super Cub for instance) is going to run $155-160/hr. 40 liters/hr (Warrior/C182) about $210/hr for 100 hrs/annum.
A Baron/C310? - (120x1.74)x 3 = $575
Like Forkie said above, 2 Bonanzas flying in formation.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 20th Jun 2010 at 16:51.
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Edit, correction, re-read my figures, and forgot to add in the fact is co owned, cost are 72.35 each.. so total is $144.70 Per Hour.
pretty much on par with going hire rates for a similar aircraft.
pretty much on par with going hire rates for a similar aircraft.
