Dick Smith: Do You Agree With The Mandatory Broadcast Area in Class E Above D?
Desmotronic...easypeasey..saves you doing all that research..This is compliments of the research of ARFOR et al-
ALice Springs Airspace Study
Now go to page 34 of the study and do not forget to look at the criteria on the top of the page for the trigger levels for a Tower. As far as the FAA data? Ask Mr Plumbum! There are a considerable number on this thread who wish for Mr Plumbum to provide just one single FAA E over D aerodrome that handles as many RPT movements and passenger numbers as does Broome
ALice Springs Airspace Study
Now go to page 34 of the study and do not forget to look at the criteria on the top of the page for the trigger levels for a Tower. As far as the FAA data? Ask Mr Plumbum! There are a considerable number on this thread who wish for Mr Plumbum to provide just one single FAA E over D aerodrome that handles as many RPT movements and passenger numbers as does Broome
Oz, this link:
http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications..._1986-2009.xls
indicates broome in 2009 had:
3270 airline movements and 2178 regional airline movements. So even if you include every bloggs in his rpt bandit metro or whatever is still only 15 movements per day and only 9 major airline (presumably jet) movements per day.
Please provide a reference for your quote.
How are these numbers "busy"?
http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications..._1986-2009.xls
indicates broome in 2009 had:
3270 airline movements and 2178 regional airline movements. So even if you include every bloggs in his rpt bandit metro or whatever is still only 15 movements per day and only 9 major airline (presumably jet) movements per day.
Please provide a reference for your quote.
How are these numbers "busy"?
Nice try Desmo..this study was tabled in Jan 2010.
Also go to page 24 of the study and note-
AND
This is for Alice Springs..there are a number of studies for most of our current ICAO class D towers and not one recommends changing C to E. No points for guessing why BRM got E.
Also go to page 24 of the study and note-
It is important to note that the study makes recommendations based on existing and projected data. The following comment as summarised by Justice Gibbs of the High Court of Australia has been considered while conducting the study:
Where it is possible to guard against a foreseeable risk which, though perhaps not great, nevertheless cannot be called remote or fanciful, by adopting a means which involves little difficulty or expense, the failure to adopt such means will in general be negligent.
Where it is possible to guard against a foreseeable risk which, though perhaps not great, nevertheless cannot be called remote or fanciful, by adopting a means which involves little difficulty or expense, the failure to adopt such means will in general be negligent.
10 Recommendations-
10.2 Based upon stakeholder feedback and supported by risk assessment and
modelling, the OAR has concluded that the current airspace design and level of air traffic services provided are adequate in addressing the level of risk that exists.
Therefore the OAR does not propose to make any change to the current airspace architecture or level of ATS provided.
10.2 Based upon stakeholder feedback and supported by risk assessment and
modelling, the OAR has concluded that the current airspace design and level of air traffic services provided are adequate in addressing the level of risk that exists.
Therefore the OAR does not propose to make any change to the current airspace architecture or level of ATS provided.
Desmo, I think I would believe the numbers from AirServices over BITRE
Take note on passenger numbers for Broome 391,314 and divide that by the TOTAL movments for Broome for the same period 5448 and you get an average of about 72 passengers per flight?????
An average of 72? I bet QANTAS wish they had those loadings for every flight into BRM. Thats more than a fully loaded junglejet. Do you think BITRE may have missed a few flights?
Take note on passenger numbers for Broome 391,314 and divide that by the TOTAL movments for Broome for the same period 5448 and you get an average of about 72 passengers per flight?????
An average of 72? I bet QANTAS wish they had those loadings for every flight into BRM. Thats more than a fully loaded junglejet. Do you think BITRE may have missed a few flights?
Total movements are given for an annual figure...divide by 365...now you can extrapolate those figures to either H24 or HJ..your choice. You can even weight them for weekends and public holidays and school holidays and the like and get even busier periods of activity..allow for the wet and the dry and things change dramaticly.
Heaps of passengers in light aircraft???? Does that mean there are far more VFRs flying around than mentioned on this thread???? And these vast numbers are going to be blasting around unannounced in class E??? Geekerwilikers...its a good thing the OAR bought about E+!
AND with an average loading of 72????
AND with an average loading of 72????
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It is my opinion that OZBUSDRIVER is a multi user identity. Just one person couldn't be that much of a pedant. And no, sunshine, I don't get sick of justifying anything at Broome because I don't, and couldn't care less if the whole place self immolated especially if I am not there, where I am 99.99999R% of the time.
How often are you there flying your four holer?
.
Since when did you become a "big kid" in this discussion? Been practicing the Oujia with the recently "defrocked" and departed experts have we?
How often are you there flying your four holer?
And for precisely this truth..the big kids will work around this experiment
Since when did you become a "big kid" in this discussion? Been practicing the Oujia with the recently "defrocked" and departed experts have we?
Ozbusdriver,
I doesnt matter what you say 3270 airline movements is still only 4 or 5 airline aircraft per day with 2 movements each. 1 in 1 out.
In addition to that there are 6 regional airline movements per day.. could be titans chieftains metros bandits etc and the rest (about 80 per day) is in the 'other' category.
I doesnt matter what you say 3270 airline movements is still only 4 or 5 airline aircraft per day with 2 movements each. 1 in 1 out.
In addition to that there are 6 regional airline movements per day.. could be titans chieftains metros bandits etc and the rest (about 80 per day) is in the 'other' category.
Last edited by desmotronic; 23rd Jun 2010 at 07:13.
Add the other important party
Why stoop to playing the man so quickly, Francis? It is far more satisfying winning on the merits of your argument...I am in no fear of your current attempts!
What Guanty refers to is the number of players up there who actually do fly in and out of Broome on a regular basis..all (hopefully) professional about how they handled the CAGRO ops and now Class D ops...They, like OAR, see the need for "work rounds" to make their operations safe where the procedures are lacking...its called airmanship! Despite E and E+, these "work rounds" will help ensure that there will be as few as possible reportable incidents...as few as possible will mean the success of the experiment despite its obvious shortcomings...OR....
Despite the experiment. REAL professional pilots will quietly go about their work and apply "work rounds" that will ensure their and their passengers safety in a deficient airspace experiment. These guys do not like "Betting the farm" that they will be protected by poorly devised procedures with little to non existent backups.....OR...
Real professional pilots AND ATC do not trust this experiment! Who am I to argue with them...
I frankly believe in their cause! I do not trust anything that leaves so many grey areas in operational procedures..mandatory broadcast...to who? and do they maintain continuous contact..and can they do that by just monitoring the frequency? If they do not broadcast...under what reg will they find themselves in breach..ultimately, if things go reportable, who is at fault and who is responsible?..very grey indeed!
What Guanty refers to is the number of players up there who actually do fly in and out of Broome on a regular basis..all (hopefully) professional about how they handled the CAGRO ops and now Class D ops...They, like OAR, see the need for "work rounds" to make their operations safe where the procedures are lacking...its called airmanship! Despite E and E+, these "work rounds" will help ensure that there will be as few as possible reportable incidents...as few as possible will mean the success of the experiment despite its obvious shortcomings...OR....
Despite the experiment. REAL professional pilots will quietly go about their work and apply "work rounds" that will ensure their and their passengers safety in a deficient airspace experiment. These guys do not like "Betting the farm" that they will be protected by poorly devised procedures with little to non existent backups.....OR...
Real professional pilots AND ATC do not trust this experiment! Who am I to argue with them...
I frankly believe in their cause! I do not trust anything that leaves so many grey areas in operational procedures..mandatory broadcast...to who? and do they maintain continuous contact..and can they do that by just monitoring the frequency? If they do not broadcast...under what reg will they find themselves in breach..ultimately, if things go reportable, who is at fault and who is responsible?..very grey indeed!
Last edited by OZBUSDRIVER; 23rd Jun 2010 at 07:31.
Desmotronic...you haven't said which figures you trust... BITRE or AirServices?
Now question for a question how do you get 12 per hour out of 100 per day?
Maybe the airlines should compensate all other airspace users for their exclusive use of the public sky in which they make their profits.
Call it BSPT... big sky profit tax. Make it a tax on profit not production so there is no loss of jobs nor reduction in services.
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The BITRE figures for Broome only count fare-paying pax on RPT major and regional services.
Freight, charter, GA, overflys, etc are not counted.
Oh., and in the Notes tab of that BITRE spreadsheet there is
Freight, charter, GA, overflys, etc are not counted.
Oh., and in the Notes tab of that BITRE spreadsheet there is
... that data have been provided by third parties, the Commonwealth gives no warranty as to the accuracy, reliability, fitness for purpose, or otherwise of the information.
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Now question for a question how do you get 12 per hour out of 100 per day?
And also...some regional places do not have a full schedule every day but maybe multiples on mostly weekdays, so you have to look at the busy periods being wwork days during daylight hours perhaps.