ATSB Report on Cessna 210 Fatal in WA - A must read report.
Aussiefan, this is a procedure if you have a blocked static source and no alternate source.
You certainly won't be getting vacuum to power the gyroscopic instruments such as the AH and DG.
You certainly won't be getting vacuum to power the gyroscopic instruments such as the AH and DG.
On a somewhat related topic, has any PPruner experienced a similar failure with an EFIS setup? And if so, what system did you have fitted?
Many moons ago, I recall reading one of the DFS Flying Feedback mags where a PC-9 had an EFIS failure (in VMC) that resulted in the AH showing a descending right turn when S&L...
As has been suggested above, if you can ignore the faulty instrument, it makes things so much easier, but with the new EFIS displays available(where the AH shows through the ASI, DG and ALT tapes) , particularly to the homebuilt crowd, I'm wondering what means people have found to similarly ignore a "failed" display...
Many moons ago, I recall reading one of the DFS Flying Feedback mags where a PC-9 had an EFIS failure (in VMC) that resulted in the AH showing a descending right turn when S&L...
As has been suggested above, if you can ignore the faulty instrument, it makes things so much easier, but with the new EFIS displays available(where the AH shows through the ASI, DG and ALT tapes) , particularly to the homebuilt crowd, I'm wondering what means people have found to similarly ignore a "failed" display...
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Have had an EFIS EADI failure at night in IMC. In my case, standby AH on the pilot's panel in a place where it should be for easy reference while flicking a switch to modify the lower EHSI EFIS to 'composite' mode. The correct attitude data was then displayed in 'composite' with heading information on the lower screen. Hardly as threatening as a suction pump failure in a single at night.
Beware of twins also. Just because you have two vac pumps doesn't mean you can't face this situation. Had an event in the past where I lost AH and DG in a twin. Heading/track information off a GPS in this day and age can also help in this situation as it will be more stable than the old magnetic compass - especially in turbulence.
Can verify the importance of covering failed instruments. Don't think you are too good and won't be fooled. It will capture your attention more than you would be willing to admit and the false signals to your brain will make it even harder to function on the limited panel scan. Do yourself a favour and visit a $2 shop and buy some of those suction soap holder disks - perfect for the job.
Beware of twins also. Just because you have two vac pumps doesn't mean you can't face this situation. Had an event in the past where I lost AH and DG in a twin. Heading/track information off a GPS in this day and age can also help in this situation as it will be more stable than the old magnetic compass - especially in turbulence.
Can verify the importance of covering failed instruments. Don't think you are too good and won't be fooled. It will capture your attention more than you would be willing to admit and the false signals to your brain will make it even harder to function on the limited panel scan. Do yourself a favour and visit a $2 shop and buy some of those suction soap holder disks - perfect for the job.
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Yes Arnold E, BUT the standy instrument is a completely independant unit - totally seperate from the Honeywell Primus Apex avionics suite. Just because it is not steam driven doesn't mean it is bad...
I used to carry a wad of post it notes. They are perfect for covering a failed instrument and handy for leaving notes on the console for the next Pilot with the gotchas!
Twins are not immune
I had both AHs go in a Baron once. Both pumps were working fine, but something went in the line after the point where both sources were plumbed together.
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Strange comments
Here we go again with some obviously NOT qualified people making silly comments. I do not refer to sensible people in this thread like FTDK.
"I have seen the Aspen loose it's **** many times". Really ? One wonders how many SDR's that particular person has submitted??? Me thinks not one!!! I have not yet heard of an Aspen failing although I concede that it is likely to happen occasionally. One would have to wonder about a person who continually and persistently flew an aircraft that had a continuously failing primary instrument. Any Aspen installation done by respectable avionics shops will have the normal six pack steam driven gauges down either side making a failure a not so big drama.
I can attest to the fact that glass screens do go blank sometimes however the redundancy systems such as composite mode and the standby ESIS tend to make it a non event. For those who wonder an ESIS similar to one fitted in the RFDS Kingair will allow a pilot to hand fly a VOR or ILS approach with AH, ASI, ALT, HDG and CDI information all available out of that one little unit.
I note with interest that Cessna has stuck to analogue backups with the G1000 although I think they all electric.
Any person flying regular IFR missions in a single would do well to carefully read FTDK's post. He has what sounds like a very sensible setup in his Bonanza and he understands the pitfalls.
Groggy
"I have seen the Aspen loose it's **** many times". Really ? One wonders how many SDR's that particular person has submitted??? Me thinks not one!!! I have not yet heard of an Aspen failing although I concede that it is likely to happen occasionally. One would have to wonder about a person who continually and persistently flew an aircraft that had a continuously failing primary instrument. Any Aspen installation done by respectable avionics shops will have the normal six pack steam driven gauges down either side making a failure a not so big drama.
I can attest to the fact that glass screens do go blank sometimes however the redundancy systems such as composite mode and the standby ESIS tend to make it a non event. For those who wonder an ESIS similar to one fitted in the RFDS Kingair will allow a pilot to hand fly a VOR or ILS approach with AH, ASI, ALT, HDG and CDI information all available out of that one little unit.
I note with interest that Cessna has stuck to analogue backups with the G1000 although I think they all electric.
Any person flying regular IFR missions in a single would do well to carefully read FTDK's post. He has what sounds like a very sensible setup in his Bonanza and he understands the pitfalls.
Groggy
Thread Starter
Some years back I watched a businessman who owned a new Cirrus, practicing instrument flying in an Elite Synthetic Trainer. He was coming up for his initial command instrument rating, I think. Some of this practice he was conducting was on autopilot doing holding patterns. I suggested he should practice without using the artificial horizon because this was where things could go undone in real life in IMC.
He scorned that idea and I suspect it was because he was happy flogging around on autopilot and thinking that bad only happened to other pilots. His Cirrus had a beaut EFIS and autopilot.
A few days later I walked past the Elite Synthetic Trainer and there he was assiduously entering a holding pattern and hand flying no problem. Again I gently suggested he should get some limited panel practice in - but to no avail. Without telling him, I used the mouse to fail his AH and in this synthetic trainer there was no Off flag. I then sauntered into the next room to make a cup of coffee and within less than a minute I heard a startled "what the f..k" from under the hood of the synthetic trainer - followed by more oaths. I returned to look at the screen and saw the trace of the aircraft was a spiral into the deck at high rate of descent. The businessman pilot emerged upset and pissed off that his beautifully flown holding pattern had suddenly ended in disaster.
Instead of being grateful for the lesson, he became quite angry. That was probably why he avoided flying on limited panel during his practice sessions because he was incompetent in that regard. Loss of face not only applies to Asians..
He scorned that idea and I suspect it was because he was happy flogging around on autopilot and thinking that bad only happened to other pilots. His Cirrus had a beaut EFIS and autopilot.
A few days later I walked past the Elite Synthetic Trainer and there he was assiduously entering a holding pattern and hand flying no problem. Again I gently suggested he should get some limited panel practice in - but to no avail. Without telling him, I used the mouse to fail his AH and in this synthetic trainer there was no Off flag. I then sauntered into the next room to make a cup of coffee and within less than a minute I heard a startled "what the f..k" from under the hood of the synthetic trainer - followed by more oaths. I returned to look at the screen and saw the trace of the aircraft was a spiral into the deck at high rate of descent. The businessman pilot emerged upset and pissed off that his beautifully flown holding pattern had suddenly ended in disaster.
Instead of being grateful for the lesson, he became quite angry. That was probably why he avoided flying on limited panel during his practice sessions because he was incompetent in that regard. Loss of face not only applies to Asians..
Thread Starter
handy for leaving notes on the console for the next Pilot with the gotchas!
Arnold,
Nothing new it that. The concept has been around for a long time:
Gobbler,
Bit harsh methinks. I think Centaurus didn't pick up on your sarcasm.
It is interesting to note that the new generation of PCXII that RFDS Central has just taken delivery of, has no steam driven instruments of any kind.
Gobbler,
I knew that was coming when I posted it
Grogmonster - Should you want more specific details I am more than happy to provide them to you via PM.
I am not here for a **** flinging match and don't feel it appropriate to discuss specifics in a public forum. My comment was merely to highlight the fact that complacency can easily arise when confronted by enough shiny dials.
Admittedly my choice of wording may have been less than perfect.
I do challenge you to explain in what capacity you believe I am 'obviously NOT qualified' to report my own personal experiences with a unit that I have had a extensive amount of time operating?
I am not here for a **** flinging match and don't feel it appropriate to discuss specifics in a public forum. My comment was merely to highlight the fact that complacency can easily arise when confronted by enough shiny dials.
Admittedly my choice of wording may have been less than perfect.
I do challenge you to explain in what capacity you believe I am 'obviously NOT qualified' to report my own personal experiences with a unit that I have had a extensive amount of time operating?
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Arnold E,
Here is a westops PC12E.
Just infront of the bossmans chin there is an electronic back up, pretty good gear and in a reasonably user friendly spot, with speed and altitude tape (IMHO far superior to steam driven), so the PC12E (AKA:NG, does have a back up system).
Here is a westops PC12E.
Just infront of the bossmans chin there is an electronic back up, pretty good gear and in a reasonably user friendly spot, with speed and altitude tape (IMHO far superior to steam driven), so the PC12E (AKA:NG, does have a back up system).
Last edited by Josh Cox; 25th Apr 2010 at 21:26. Reason: more goodera spelling.
Quite true Josh, but the point I was making was that it is not a steam driven instrument, ie: it has no spinning gyros and infact has its own air data unit. ( there is nothing "convetional" about it.)
Haven't had a screen fail yet, replaced a few but they have always telegraphed their demise.
In that same time period have had to replace about half a dozen standby AH's and the poxy things have no MEL i.e. grounded!
In that same time period have had to replace about half a dozen standby AH's and the poxy things have no MEL i.e. grounded!