Im in an unusual situation
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And what happens if too many guys look like passing the course?
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On my "scrub ride" at BFTS I was a bit of a mess, when we got back I knew I had failed. I spent a bit longer putting the aircraft away, walked around it slowly (it was the last time I ever went out on the flight line), took a lingering look around and then did the slow walk to the debrief.
The testing officer asked me to shut the door, invited me to sit, then asked, "So how do you think that went?". I said, "Frankly, Sir, that was embarrassing, and I wouldn't pass me." He seemed somewhat relieved that he didn't have to break it to me.
I had been given plenty of opportunities to get it right, and yes it was near the end of the course, but it was clear that it just wasn't working. I made the mistakes. Me. No blame on instructors, or the system, just me.
To speak to some of the other comments:
Instructors are fairly well monitored and complaints against them are taken seriously. Students have to read and sign the "hate sheets", so the student shouldn't be surprised at all if their performance is noticeably poor. Instructors have bad days too, and sometimes unfair things happen, but the higher-ups these days seem to be a bit more aware of that and will take positive action. I've seen at least one case personally where a potential scrubbing was overturned by an outbreak of sanity behind closed doors. The student went on to finish BFTS and is now at Oakey transitioning to a very nice helicopter.
If the whole course is good enough, the whole course will get through. If they all suck, the "system" will not hesitate to scrub them all. Defence is trying desperately to feed pilots in at the top of the funnel while they pour out the other end into civvie jobs or just out, so if anything they would be trying to keep more students in the training. Having said that, let me quote the CO:
"I can take any idiot off the street and teach him to fly, given enough time and money, but I don't want any idiot, I want pilots that get it right the first time, every time. I'll put up with you making one mistake. Under special circumstances I'll even put up with two. But if you need more than that to succeed as a military pilot, then you are not the pilot the military is looking for."
I didn't appeal my Notice To Show Cause, I just quietly packed my things and did my best to get on with my life. There will always be the "what if" moments, and I hope the crushing sense of failure dims more as time goes by, but life goes on, the bills have to be paid, so you do what you have to do.
My advice to the original poster is ... at 28, if you are relatively debt free, get out, buy a swag, do whatever you need to do legally to get your solo hours up (you'll need about 70 command nav hours to get your 200 hour CPL), then keep going from there. Don't "plan on" flying a bit here an there, then go and get settled into a job or a place so long that you look back at 38 and wonder what happened to the last ten years of your life.
And don't get any girls pregnant.
The testing officer asked me to shut the door, invited me to sit, then asked, "So how do you think that went?". I said, "Frankly, Sir, that was embarrassing, and I wouldn't pass me." He seemed somewhat relieved that he didn't have to break it to me.
I had been given plenty of opportunities to get it right, and yes it was near the end of the course, but it was clear that it just wasn't working. I made the mistakes. Me. No blame on instructors, or the system, just me.
To speak to some of the other comments:
Instructors are fairly well monitored and complaints against them are taken seriously. Students have to read and sign the "hate sheets", so the student shouldn't be surprised at all if their performance is noticeably poor. Instructors have bad days too, and sometimes unfair things happen, but the higher-ups these days seem to be a bit more aware of that and will take positive action. I've seen at least one case personally where a potential scrubbing was overturned by an outbreak of sanity behind closed doors. The student went on to finish BFTS and is now at Oakey transitioning to a very nice helicopter.
If the whole course is good enough, the whole course will get through. If they all suck, the "system" will not hesitate to scrub them all. Defence is trying desperately to feed pilots in at the top of the funnel while they pour out the other end into civvie jobs or just out, so if anything they would be trying to keep more students in the training. Having said that, let me quote the CO:
"I can take any idiot off the street and teach him to fly, given enough time and money, but I don't want any idiot, I want pilots that get it right the first time, every time. I'll put up with you making one mistake. Under special circumstances I'll even put up with two. But if you need more than that to succeed as a military pilot, then you are not the pilot the military is looking for."
I didn't appeal my Notice To Show Cause, I just quietly packed my things and did my best to get on with my life. There will always be the "what if" moments, and I hope the crushing sense of failure dims more as time goes by, but life goes on, the bills have to be paid, so you do what you have to do.
My advice to the original poster is ... at 28, if you are relatively debt free, get out, buy a swag, do whatever you need to do legally to get your solo hours up (you'll need about 70 command nav hours to get your 200 hour CPL), then keep going from there. Don't "plan on" flying a bit here an there, then go and get settled into a job or a place so long that you look back at 38 and wonder what happened to the last ten years of your life.
And don't get any girls pregnant.
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"I can take any idiot off the street and teach him to fly, given enough time and money, but I don't want any idiot, I want pilots that get it right the first time, every time. I'll put up with you making one mistake. Under special circumstances I'll even put up with two. But if you need more than that to succeed as a military pilot, then you are not the pilot the military is looking for."
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Hi elwoodb,
I really feel for you, being scrubbed must have been a bitter pill to swallow, but your attitude is inspiring and will get you through.
The most important thing is - just sit on your hands and do not make any hasty decisions. You are part of a big family that will take care of you, and you have a secure income.
To keep away from a boring desk, you could consider Intelligence or ATC, rather than Admino . Staying in will allow you to do to continue your private flying and you can do your ATPL groundschool through TAFE. (I did, it was great and I passed all subjects first time.)
Keep faith and be lucky!
Neppie
I really feel for you, being scrubbed must have been a bitter pill to swallow, but your attitude is inspiring and will get you through.
The most important thing is - just sit on your hands and do not make any hasty decisions. You are part of a big family that will take care of you, and you have a secure income.
To keep away from a boring desk, you could consider Intelligence or ATC, rather than Admino . Staying in will allow you to do to continue your private flying and you can do your ATPL groundschool through TAFE. (I did, it was great and I passed all subjects first time.)
Keep faith and be lucky!
Neppie
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Elwood
For what its worth, I would stay in to feed your habit. There is some very good advice offered to you on this thread. As the industry is still in a lull at this stage and maybe for a while longer, my view would be to stay in if only 3 years. You will only be 31 which is still a pup in my eyes
Like another said, don't sit behind a desk - you can become an ATC or stay with aircrew as, what do they call them now, Air Tacticians or Air Combat officers. This will keep your mind stimulated, current and close to the action while you advance yourself in the civilian world. You will need a steady income to do all this. A GA job will not fall into your lap, and it would be hard yakka unless money is not an issue for you.
The 3 years will fly by and I have met plenty of Navies in my time that have done this very same thing and have done well out of it - and they had a ROS of 8 years.
In your enthusiasm, you don't want to be caught with your pants down - think logically about it all. I was in your shoes 40 years ago, and went back to a regular civilian job while paying my way. Took me 3 years but I did not owe a thing to anybody and the school I trained with offered me my first instructing job, and I went on from there. Those days the pressure was really on for the young & pretty to make it into an airline job, over 30 was considered way too old. Its a different ball game now where plenty of pilots flying now in very good jobs started learning to fly at age 30. So give it some thought - don't throw away the RAAF just yet. Stay in aircrew if you can. PM me if you wish....
Good Luck.
For what its worth, I would stay in to feed your habit. There is some very good advice offered to you on this thread. As the industry is still in a lull at this stage and maybe for a while longer, my view would be to stay in if only 3 years. You will only be 31 which is still a pup in my eyes
Like another said, don't sit behind a desk - you can become an ATC or stay with aircrew as, what do they call them now, Air Tacticians or Air Combat officers. This will keep your mind stimulated, current and close to the action while you advance yourself in the civilian world. You will need a steady income to do all this. A GA job will not fall into your lap, and it would be hard yakka unless money is not an issue for you.
The 3 years will fly by and I have met plenty of Navies in my time that have done this very same thing and have done well out of it - and they had a ROS of 8 years.
In your enthusiasm, you don't want to be caught with your pants down - think logically about it all. I was in your shoes 40 years ago, and went back to a regular civilian job while paying my way. Took me 3 years but I did not owe a thing to anybody and the school I trained with offered me my first instructing job, and I went on from there. Those days the pressure was really on for the young & pretty to make it into an airline job, over 30 was considered way too old. Its a different ball game now where plenty of pilots flying now in very good jobs started learning to fly at age 30. So give it some thought - don't throw away the RAAF just yet. Stay in aircrew if you can. PM me if you wish....
Good Luck.
Wish2be
a great post. Well done on your honesty and willingness to post on such a traumatic event. I wish you all the best and am sure that with an attitude like yours you will go a long way. All the best.
a great post. Well done on your honesty and willingness to post on such a traumatic event. I wish you all the best and am sure that with an attitude like yours you will go a long way. All the best.
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6. The fact that the failure rates on ADF pilots course would not be tolerated in the civil arena is irrelevant.
Errr, why?
6. The fact that the failure rates on ADF pilots course would not be tolerated in the civil arena is irrelevant.
Errr, why?
So were you a knuck or just a wannabe knuck...
I'm a pilot!
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Quote:
"I can take any idiot off the street and teach him to fly, given enough time and money, but I don't want any idiot, I want pilots that get it right the first time, every time. I'll put up with you making one mistake. Under special circumstances I'll even put up with two. But if you need more than that to succeed as a military pilot, then you are not the pilot the military is looking for."
"I can take any idiot off the street and teach him to fly, given enough time and money, but I don't want any idiot, I want pilots that get it right the first time, every time. I'll put up with you making one mistake. Under special circumstances I'll even put up with two. But if you need more than that to succeed as a military pilot, then you are not the pilot the military is looking for."
If thats the case then he better forget about using human pilots, he might also want to read up on a copy of Bob Taits Human Performance and Limitations. Seriously, these people think they are so high and mighty and that the sun shines from there arse, i wonder what his one mistake in life was
On the advice about staying in and going ATC or ACO - these are also high-pressure, high failure rate courses, and both things I investigated before discharging into a civvie job. I made the decision that I wasn't ready to put myself under that pressure and drag my family around the country for another two or three years. As it was, I moved five times in two years. If the original poster is single and relatively debt free, I advise doing whatever it takes to get into a paid flying job sooner rather than later.
allthecoolnamesarego - Ta.
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elwoodb
this is turning into a boring thread,it should give you some idea of what you are up against already.
there is no golden goose
ball sack and determination then come back and tell us how you got on.
good luck
this is turning into a boring thread,it should give you some idea of what you are up against already.
there is no golden goose
ball sack and determination then come back and tell us how you got on.
good luck
If you haven't been part of that system it's difficult to appreciate the level of performance demanded of the pilots. Think of it this way ... these are people entrusted with defending our country. Do you want people who can think and make the right decisions under pressure, or do you want people who have REPEATEDLY shown themselves to be unable to do that? (because you DO get more than one chance to get it right)
Ex-RAAF pilots can be very good. Some are absolute stand outs- pragmatic and with uncanny, high levels of SA. I would say this pragmatic approach makes them a few notches above ex-RAF but there is more to it than that.
But. There are a good proportion of battlers too. Guys that need to work hard at their civilian airline flying even though some are from essentially "civilian" aircraft such as VIP aircraft and non-tactical transports.
If you base your standards on low cost carriers and the minimum expectations they have. Then ex-RAAF must look very good. And because of this, to the author of the thread, piss aviation off due the low standards and pay of proliferating budget carriers.
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Captain
Sounds like a good reason to outsource the whole thing then... maybe the taxpayer would get a bit more accountability and better value - and better pilots if the process was not so focussed on achieving 'the standard' by rejection. No-one wants you to make a profit but we do want you to be good at what you do... If you find it nescessary to reject so many then maybe you're not so good at what you do?
The financial and human cost of doing it your way maybe needs looking at!
Because the ADF is not a business, and therefore is not concerned with turning a profit. Their primary concern is producing the required number of pilots of the required standard.
The financial and human cost of doing it your way maybe needs looking at!
Because the ADF is not a business, and therefore is not concerned with turning a profit. Their primary concern is producing the required number of pilots of the required standard.
I know a broken rotor who failed his final flight test at Oakey and is now a GSO. This after about three years and millions of dollars. My former boss (Army) who is now a Sqnldr in the RAAF, described AAvn and ADF pilot selection as a "basket case", due to an inability to provide enough candidates and courses to meet operational requirements.
Driven by financial pressures, the ADF will radically change the way it does business in the next decade.
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Elwood,
For what its worth my advice is to stay in, get paid a decent salary and fly as much as you can off your own bat. By earning more you will be able to afford more. Get yourself more multi time early, get a jet rating as soon as possible then apply to the locos in Aus and overseas.
Perhaps the best advice I can give you is to speak to your instructors. While they may have been hard on you during training you will probably find that they will go out of their way to help you succeed in a new path. They probably have good contacts around the country in various flying fields as well.
On a tangent and following on from some of the comments directed at mil flying training. I am constantly amused by those that have not been through the military system and yet feel qualified to comment on its suitability. I believe that the only people that can give an honest comparison of military and civvy flying are those that have experience of both.
I am ex military, now flying civvy. I am extremely grateful that the training I had (RAF) was tough. I am thankful that I was put through the ringer, and that my colleagues were as well. I am thankful that some of my fellow students of the time were chopped. Why so happy about this? Because I have been to war, I have been shot at, and I have had to have the ability and the confidence not only in myself but also in the guy flying with me to not just stay alive, but to get the job done.
Someone made a comment earlier mocking a statement by a military flyer about not accepting more than one mistake. Well I agree with that military flyer. Im not perfect, nowhere near. But in certain flying situations there simply isnt room for making mistakes. If you do make one, and it doesnt turn out to be your last, then you better fix it very quickly and not make it again.
Does talking like this make me sound arrogant? Cocky? Maybe. But I am still flying having been through situations that civvies just wont ever be exposed to. So again I say thanks to my instructors and a system that pushed and tested me to such high standards.
Blah
For what its worth my advice is to stay in, get paid a decent salary and fly as much as you can off your own bat. By earning more you will be able to afford more. Get yourself more multi time early, get a jet rating as soon as possible then apply to the locos in Aus and overseas.
Perhaps the best advice I can give you is to speak to your instructors. While they may have been hard on you during training you will probably find that they will go out of their way to help you succeed in a new path. They probably have good contacts around the country in various flying fields as well.
On a tangent and following on from some of the comments directed at mil flying training. I am constantly amused by those that have not been through the military system and yet feel qualified to comment on its suitability. I believe that the only people that can give an honest comparison of military and civvy flying are those that have experience of both.
I am ex military, now flying civvy. I am extremely grateful that the training I had (RAF) was tough. I am thankful that I was put through the ringer, and that my colleagues were as well. I am thankful that some of my fellow students of the time were chopped. Why so happy about this? Because I have been to war, I have been shot at, and I have had to have the ability and the confidence not only in myself but also in the guy flying with me to not just stay alive, but to get the job done.
Someone made a comment earlier mocking a statement by a military flyer about not accepting more than one mistake. Well I agree with that military flyer. Im not perfect, nowhere near. But in certain flying situations there simply isnt room for making mistakes. If you do make one, and it doesnt turn out to be your last, then you better fix it very quickly and not make it again.
Does talking like this make me sound arrogant? Cocky? Maybe. But I am still flying having been through situations that civvies just wont ever be exposed to. So again I say thanks to my instructors and a system that pushed and tested me to such high standards.
Blah
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Hey guys, as for the raaf stuff all I know is that they are certain it works resonably well (although there is some rumbling about it from the really old guys about the changes made), guys get scrubbed that can complete course they just circumstances just dont permit it. We were out doing stuff in training that no other airforce does, such as turning rejoins in the FORM phase. They are also training guys to be single seat pilots that in theory (not practice) that can take the step up to the hawk, or other platforms so that in combat they can keep themselves and the ground troops alive!
wish2bflying: mate I know that feeling all too well, but only after failed rides, I never failed a scrub ride. I got scrubbed on a marginal, I had failed rides (and passed the re-fly's) gradually increased my warning's until a CO's warning. I got marged and the CO sent me on my way, not much I can do about it, a little annoyed I never got to fly with the CO or CFI so the decision was made purely of my hate sheets, even though my instructor and flight commander wanted to keep me flying and on course I still got scrubbed (both had flown with me).
Many thanks to everyone for the advice, the RAAF might not be an option, global downturn means for the first time in a long time they have enough recruits. Really dont want to do ATC or ACO the roso's are just to long to be not flying! Have a small amount of time to get myself sorted and work out which way to head, thanks for all the advice!
Cheers
Elwood
wish2bflying: mate I know that feeling all too well, but only after failed rides, I never failed a scrub ride. I got scrubbed on a marginal, I had failed rides (and passed the re-fly's) gradually increased my warning's until a CO's warning. I got marged and the CO sent me on my way, not much I can do about it, a little annoyed I never got to fly with the CO or CFI so the decision was made purely of my hate sheets, even though my instructor and flight commander wanted to keep me flying and on course I still got scrubbed (both had flown with me).
Many thanks to everyone for the advice, the RAAF might not be an option, global downturn means for the first time in a long time they have enough recruits. Really dont want to do ATC or ACO the roso's are just to long to be not flying! Have a small amount of time to get myself sorted and work out which way to head, thanks for all the advice!
Cheers
Elwood