Virgin Cruise FO: Accepting Interest...
For those of you that think there is no career path for CFOs. VB are arranging slots for interviews with VB after their 24 month bond comes closer to expiry. Some of you may say that why have to go through the interview process again. Those VB guys/gals that transverred to V about a yr ago also had to go through Vs interview process.
Thanks TF, I kinda' worked that one out for myself back in the beginning. People really need to read the original VA contract. A more cynical document you will never find. I particularily love the part where a CFO after having spent thousands of dollars and years of effort to become qualified, then over a period of no less than six years, is required to resign from Two(2) major airlines, and Re-apply to the same Two(2) major airlines, all just to advance His/Her career with the original carrier! Also, there is nothing in the contract to prevent VA or VB from not accepting the pilot either on the outbound journey or back to VA! More than one golden opportunity to punt an undesireable, aggitator, or non-brownnoser if ever there was one.
It's all well and good to have stars in your eyes. Crikey if we didn't have stars at some stage in our lives then none of us would be flying today, but the "progression" component of the VA contract takes the term "Snake Oil Salesman" to an entirely new level.
There's a lot of flack going back and forth. Quite naturally when you have two different opinions from people with "stars" on one side of the fence, and those who can see this whole thing for what it really is.
If you're hopeing for the EBA negotiations to bring about change in this area, I wouldn't be holding my breath. I've been involved with more than one EBA in the past, and I can tell you apart from maybe a modest pay rise (usually at the sacrifice of some conditions, although in this case I fail to see any conditions to give up in the first place), operational matters such as Minimum crew requirements for a window seat, won't get a look in.
As I said before,
GOOD LUCK!!!
It's all well and good to have stars in your eyes. Crikey if we didn't have stars at some stage in our lives then none of us would be flying today, but the "progression" component of the VA contract takes the term "Snake Oil Salesman" to an entirely new level.
There's a lot of flack going back and forth. Quite naturally when you have two different opinions from people with "stars" on one side of the fence, and those who can see this whole thing for what it really is.
If you're hopeing for the EBA negotiations to bring about change in this area, I wouldn't be holding my breath. I've been involved with more than one EBA in the past, and I can tell you apart from maybe a modest pay rise (usually at the sacrifice of some conditions, although in this case I fail to see any conditions to give up in the first place), operational matters such as Minimum crew requirements for a window seat, won't get a look in.
As I said before,
GOOD LUCK!!!
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Just the Facts
Upgrade Requirements for V-Australia Pilots
Command
Basic Hour Requirements- Command
8000 Total of which 500 hours should be multi Engine command
And Either
2000 Command or First Officer Time on a Wide or Narrow Body RPT Jet > 40 tonnes. A pilot must have a command endorsement on the aircraft to meet this requirement.
Or 1000 Command on Wide Body Jet > 120 tonnes (B767 or above)
Or 250 Sectors as a First Officer on Wide-bodies (767 or above) with a minimum of 50
Sectors completed on V Australia B777 aircraft
The above requirements may be varied by the GMFO in exceptional circumstances only.
Military aircraft and two crew jets below 40 tonnes will be assessed by the GMFO on a case by case basis to decide if the hours meet the required criteria to be considered for promotion.
First Officer
Basic Hour Requirements- First Officer
4000 Total
400 Sectors in a Jet RPT aircraft > 40 tonnes as Co-Pilot or Pilot in Command. A pilot must have a Command endorsement on the aircraft to meet this requirement. 1000 Co-Pilot Hours after Check to Line on RPT aircraft > 40 tonnes is deemed to meet these sector requirements.
CRFO?s who have prior sectors on RPT Jets > 40 tonnes may combine these sectors with CRFO sector?s on the B777 to meet the 400 sector requirement. The minimum number of hours as a First Officer on RPT Jets > 40 tonnes must be 200 hours to take advantage of this provision. For CRFO?s who have prior sectors on an RPT jet a minimum of 50 sectors is required to be on V Australia B777 aircraft. The Company reserves the right to consult with previous employers in respect of sectors flown if added to the 400 sector requirement.
CRFO sectors do not constitute FO sectors unless the above provision is available.
The above requirements may be varied by the GMFO in exceptional circumstances only.
Military aircraft and two crew jets below 40 tonnes will be assessed by the GMFO on a case by case basis to decide if the hours meet the required criteria to be considered for promotion.
Command
Basic Hour Requirements- Command
8000 Total of which 500 hours should be multi Engine command
And Either
2000 Command or First Officer Time on a Wide or Narrow Body RPT Jet > 40 tonnes. A pilot must have a command endorsement on the aircraft to meet this requirement.
Or 1000 Command on Wide Body Jet > 120 tonnes (B767 or above)
Or 250 Sectors as a First Officer on Wide-bodies (767 or above) with a minimum of 50
Sectors completed on V Australia B777 aircraft
The above requirements may be varied by the GMFO in exceptional circumstances only.
Military aircraft and two crew jets below 40 tonnes will be assessed by the GMFO on a case by case basis to decide if the hours meet the required criteria to be considered for promotion.
First Officer
Basic Hour Requirements- First Officer
4000 Total
400 Sectors in a Jet RPT aircraft > 40 tonnes as Co-Pilot or Pilot in Command. A pilot must have a Command endorsement on the aircraft to meet this requirement. 1000 Co-Pilot Hours after Check to Line on RPT aircraft > 40 tonnes is deemed to meet these sector requirements.
CRFO?s who have prior sectors on RPT Jets > 40 tonnes may combine these sectors with CRFO sector?s on the B777 to meet the 400 sector requirement. The minimum number of hours as a First Officer on RPT Jets > 40 tonnes must be 200 hours to take advantage of this provision. For CRFO?s who have prior sectors on an RPT jet a minimum of 50 sectors is required to be on V Australia B777 aircraft. The Company reserves the right to consult with previous employers in respect of sectors flown if added to the 400 sector requirement.
CRFO sectors do not constitute FO sectors unless the above provision is available.
The above requirements may be varied by the GMFO in exceptional circumstances only.
Military aircraft and two crew jets below 40 tonnes will be assessed by the GMFO on a case by case basis to decide if the hours meet the required criteria to be considered for promotion.
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Not saying that I agree, but the fact that many Cruise FOs would have to leave to gain the experience for an upgrade has been available on the careers website since inception. It also states that opportunities will be limited.
The lure of a shiny jet should not be underestimated, but it's not ALWAYS best to jump at the first opportunity.
The lure of a shiny jet should not be underestimated, but it's not ALWAYS best to jump at the first opportunity.
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I worked as a cruise pilot in the past, here's a typical flight:
Turn up in briefing room, prepare all documents with F/O, do the chart (we did Oceanic via NATS so needed a chart with ETOPS circles). With capt's permission notify final fuel. In my experience 40% of capt's consulted and involved you, 40% didn't and the final 20% didn't have a clue how to act in a heavy crew.
On board, program FMC from PF chair as they went to do the walkaround. Get clearance and fill out V speed card. W&B document was my responsibility to complete in outlying airports.
After take off, fill in waypoint times, notify hosties of expected turbulence so they could plan the service. Plan the work schedule based on who was doing landing and who was tired at present.
Rarely got into a seat within 30 minutes of take off, some captains saw it as integral you were involved as much as possible. Some went down the back for a sleep, some never left their seat.
Generally do most comms, most inflight paperwork and weather dictation. NATS you have 5 minutes of activity followed by 1 hour of reading the manuals or paper. Other than that, a 12 hour flight was 2 hours sleeping, 1 hour eating, 1 hour toilet/stretch legs in aft galley/talking to crew, 3/9 hours in a seat.
The company I worked for had an SOP that whenever a CP was in a control seat, they would defer to PF regardless of their role before.
20 minutes before TOD, back into back, look to speak to Ops and give them ETA and get stand, finish up paperwork that you could without getting final Landing/Block times.
After landing, pass all paperwork to capt for signing, prepare new documents for incoming crew and tidy up the mess.
Hotel after meet and greet with incoming crew.
GOOD:
Easy life, good to absorb procedures from the third seat "the throne". Get a decent layover 4x a month (mini holiday - if its a crap crew it drags). 11 colleagues to go away with, 11 new colleagues a week later.
BAD:
Job in mundane, treated as a dick/skivvy by a lot of colleagues (including hosties), could be messed about with by management with respect to upgrade as its an inconvenience for them. Some regulatory authorities and airlines don't value all the time logged towards their thresholds. No T/O or Landings.
Only a fool enters into a job without researching it. If it works for you financially or as career progression then you apply, if you have an aversion or don't fancy it, you don't.
Turn up in briefing room, prepare all documents with F/O, do the chart (we did Oceanic via NATS so needed a chart with ETOPS circles). With capt's permission notify final fuel. In my experience 40% of capt's consulted and involved you, 40% didn't and the final 20% didn't have a clue how to act in a heavy crew.
On board, program FMC from PF chair as they went to do the walkaround. Get clearance and fill out V speed card. W&B document was my responsibility to complete in outlying airports.
After take off, fill in waypoint times, notify hosties of expected turbulence so they could plan the service. Plan the work schedule based on who was doing landing and who was tired at present.
Rarely got into a seat within 30 minutes of take off, some captains saw it as integral you were involved as much as possible. Some went down the back for a sleep, some never left their seat.
Generally do most comms, most inflight paperwork and weather dictation. NATS you have 5 minutes of activity followed by 1 hour of reading the manuals or paper. Other than that, a 12 hour flight was 2 hours sleeping, 1 hour eating, 1 hour toilet/stretch legs in aft galley/talking to crew, 3/9 hours in a seat.
The company I worked for had an SOP that whenever a CP was in a control seat, they would defer to PF regardless of their role before.
20 minutes before TOD, back into back, look to speak to Ops and give them ETA and get stand, finish up paperwork that you could without getting final Landing/Block times.
After landing, pass all paperwork to capt for signing, prepare new documents for incoming crew and tidy up the mess.
Hotel after meet and greet with incoming crew.
GOOD:
Easy life, good to absorb procedures from the third seat "the throne". Get a decent layover 4x a month (mini holiday - if its a crap crew it drags). 11 colleagues to go away with, 11 new colleagues a week later.
BAD:
Job in mundane, treated as a dick/skivvy by a lot of colleagues (including hosties), could be messed about with by management with respect to upgrade as its an inconvenience for them. Some regulatory authorities and airlines don't value all the time logged towards their thresholds. No T/O or Landings.
Only a fool enters into a job without researching it. If it works for you financially or as career progression then you apply, if you have an aversion or don't fancy it, you don't.
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Out of interest, does this new policy mean that "CRZFOs" will automatically be offered positions with VB? And on what fleet? Will be interesting to find out how this will all work. What about all the experienced pilots outside of the Virgin group applying for the latest round of recruitment? Will they be overlooked for CRZFOs coming from Vaus? What about all of the VB FOs who transferred to the Ejet and are waiting to come back to the 737? And more worrying, who will replace the CRZFOs? I wonder if that is still a much sought after position....or if it ever was.
So who pulled the retort? Biton or the Mods.
Don't think it would be the mods, But for the benefit of others it went something like this...
"I dont give a @#%* about the contract Champ.. I work for VB...etc, etc,..."
Don't think it would be the mods, But for the benefit of others it went something like this...
"I dont give a @#%* about the contract Champ.. I work for VB...etc, etc,..."
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Yes, I deleted it because I took a deep breath after I'd posted it. Schoolboy error. I'll let you in on something you may not know about VB, we don't know much at all about what is happening at Vaus. They are run as two separate companies with separate recruitment and conditions, etc. You wouldn't believe the lengths one has to go to to see a copy of the Vaus contract. Now, I don't know too many people working at Vaus which is why I asked the questions here. So now you know that it's not just a simple matter to "read the contract" as you so gleefully told me to do. Is it really that unreasonable that I should ask the questions I did on here? You act like I offended you in some way by asking them. Perhaps you should take a deep breath too.
Last edited by biton; 6th Feb 2010 at 13:36.