Virgin Cruise FO: Accepting Interest...
They are indeed. A colour full-page ad from Emirates recruiting for First Officers was in my last two 'Flight' magazines (and the aircraft depicted was a Boeing 777).
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I don't blame the guys who are accepting the job at all, they are exercising their right to make a decision that suits them, it's still a free country (sort of!).
The real villains are the architects of this contract, the envious and mean spirited Voz management. They saw an opportunity to screw pilots and they took it...big time.
Make no mistake, if QF management could get away with it, that's exactly the type of contract that would exist in mainline.
This is the thing about airline management, they hate pilots the most (even more than cabin crew and engineers). They are the enemy, not your fellow pilots. If an airline manager could take food off your table in order to increase his bonus, he would.
Think about that when your next EBA rolls around!
The real villains are the architects of this contract, the envious and mean spirited Voz management. They saw an opportunity to screw pilots and they took it...big time.
Make no mistake, if QF management could get away with it, that's exactly the type of contract that would exist in mainline.
This is the thing about airline management, they hate pilots the most (even more than cabin crew and engineers). They are the enemy, not your fellow pilots. If an airline manager could take food off your table in order to increase his bonus, he would.
Think about that when your next EBA rolls around!
Well said Reeltime. Goes to the heart of the matter doesn't it.
biton, consider the breath taken. Appologies for the slur, I retract it unconditionally. It gets a little snippy in hear sometimes, especially when not in possesion of all the facts. Not sure where I got my copy of the "contract", but if you can get a hold of one, you will see that it was most definitely drafted by the pilot's natural enemy, as so well put by Reeltime!
biton, consider the breath taken. Appologies for the slur, I retract it unconditionally. It gets a little snippy in hear sometimes, especially when not in possesion of all the facts. Not sure where I got my copy of the "contract", but if you can get a hold of one, you will see that it was most definitely drafted by the pilot's natural enemy, as so well put by Reeltime!
Why would Emirates take Cruise F/O's as F/O's when they have plenty more experienced applications? I think these guys are kidding themselves, their only option is into VB which is a good opportunity considering the experience some of them have.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong and this happening but I doubt it very much, maybe Cruise F/O to S/O at Cathay?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong and this happening but I doubt it very much, maybe Cruise F/O to S/O at Cathay?
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Personally I don't think there is anything bad working as a Cruise Pilot for a year or so, there is a lot to absorb working in a commercial heavy jet environment without having to worry/contend with the flying bit too. it a gentle exposure that certainly helps (please bear in mind, you still have to do the full TR course, pass it and any subsequent OPC/LPC's). You are fully conversant with the aircraft and can easily perform the function of PNF in an emergency if another pilot is incapacitated.
Cruise Pilots exist because they facilitate current regulatory requirements about flight time and rest. A few years ago airlines made do with 2 pilots who managed their own rest/sleep patterns. Now its felt that 2 fully aware pilots are required during all phases of flight (even flying a over an ocean and position reporting every hour).
I thought I had absorbed enough from the third seat after 6 months, however my time to upgrade wasn't up to me. The only thing that should be insisted upon by the union/regulatory authority is that the cruise pilots hired should have a definite upgrade/promotion scheme in place with the company. Or do what the company I worked for did, fly 767 as a cruise pilot then after serving your apprenticeship move down the 757 (which was also in their fleet).
Virgin are adhering to the rules set out by CASA and doing this in the cheapest way possible (by hiring cruise pilots), as a commercial operation it makes good business acumen/sense to do so. However it is worth remembering that every cruise pilot has already paid the best part of AUD200,000 to attain their licence to be in a position to provide that cheaper alternative (opposed to employing a full FO) to the airline. The have also went into further debt by agreeing to be bonded on the 777.
As a result it would be nice if the chief pilot/ops director kept this in mind and rewarded them in the future. It's a shame in the current economic climate the balance sheet has the power.
Cruise Pilots exist because they facilitate current regulatory requirements about flight time and rest. A few years ago airlines made do with 2 pilots who managed their own rest/sleep patterns. Now its felt that 2 fully aware pilots are required during all phases of flight (even flying a over an ocean and position reporting every hour).
I thought I had absorbed enough from the third seat after 6 months, however my time to upgrade wasn't up to me. The only thing that should be insisted upon by the union/regulatory authority is that the cruise pilots hired should have a definite upgrade/promotion scheme in place with the company. Or do what the company I worked for did, fly 767 as a cruise pilot then after serving your apprenticeship move down the 757 (which was also in their fleet).
Virgin are adhering to the rules set out by CASA and doing this in the cheapest way possible (by hiring cruise pilots), as a commercial operation it makes good business acumen/sense to do so. However it is worth remembering that every cruise pilot has already paid the best part of AUD200,000 to attain their licence to be in a position to provide that cheaper alternative (opposed to employing a full FO) to the airline. The have also went into further debt by agreeing to be bonded on the 777.
As a result it would be nice if the chief pilot/ops director kept this in mind and rewarded them in the future. It's a shame in the current economic climate the balance sheet has the power.
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B043 - I don't believe the rumours you heard for a second. VOz are hiring for their requirement. The only middle eastern operator that uses cruise pilots I know of at present is Qatar. A lot of other airlines (Emirates being one) if flying a heavy crew do it with either 2 FO's and a capt or 2 capt's and 1 FO.
Also if true, all these airlines are also quite capable of advertising and training applicants to their own SOP's without using an airline in a different regulatory authority and bonding them (if they so choose) directly. Which makes me wonder why skimming pilots from this scheme would be attractive to them?
Emirates and Etihad are still airlines that are seen as aspirational due to the lifestyle and benefits that come with the job. They have no shortage of applicants and therefore put their hours threshold pretty high. I am in no doubt that some pilots with 2/3000 hours would consider dropping from FO to CRP just to get a foot in the door.
Also if true, all these airlines are also quite capable of advertising and training applicants to their own SOP's without using an airline in a different regulatory authority and bonding them (if they so choose) directly. Which makes me wonder why skimming pilots from this scheme would be attractive to them?
Emirates and Etihad are still airlines that are seen as aspirational due to the lifestyle and benefits that come with the job. They have no shortage of applicants and therefore put their hours threshold pretty high. I am in no doubt that some pilots with 2/3000 hours would consider dropping from FO to CRP just to get a foot in the door.
I think you'll find that any VA CFO applying to Emirates would have to possess the minimum 2000 hours jet time, exclusive of time spent as a backseater. I have heard that some of the VA CFO's have "real" jet time, and is it any wonder that these people would be looking to move on. By not offering a clearly defined career path, VA management have almost certainly guarenteed it!
As for the rest, well, unless they have ATPL and a competative level of other experience, then their options I'm afraid appear limited.
As for the rest, well, unless they have ATPL and a competative level of other experience, then their options I'm afraid appear limited.
Emirates minimums are 4000 total 2000 on Medium size jet, (I assume A320/737). I highly doubt there would be to many Crz FO's who would have that experience and the ones that do would probably have a good shot at any airline anywhere in the world.
It used to be that a 2nd Officer position was recognised as being in a bit of a holding pattern, you didn't get to do any flying, but at least the pay was good, the lifestyle might be alright and you got yourself into a large international airline. In 5 years you'd be in the right hand seat and it'd all be worth it. In the mean time you take your pay, enjoy the staff travel, and make the most of having all care and no responsibility. This thing with VOZ seems to be taking those few things that made the job worthwhile away. Crap pay, crap job, crap career advancement. You'd could get $10,000 more than that sitting in the right hand seat of a turboprop.
But you have no choice, you need to get into a heavy jet, you need to get out of GA, and it's more money than you were earning in GA right?
That argument works when there is pilot surplus and I understand that when it comes down to a choice between surviving and not surviving, you take what you can get, but these are not those times boys. The airline industry is on the way up. The middle companies are hiring a lot of pilots and the top companies will be hiring soon too. This is the one time when you really can make a stand and say "I won't accept the first job that comes my way, I will only take a job that pays me what I'm worth." There is only one person who sets your wage, it's not those who have gone before you, it's not your prospective employer, it's you. If you accept low pay for a job then you are telling the world "this is what my job is worth, this is what I am worth." And you know what? It's true, when you accept **** pay, you are worth **** pay, and you make it just that much more difficult for everyone else to get what they think they are worth.
Of course that's easy for me to say. I don't want the job anyway, regardless of pay, because I don't want to be an SO, I'm here to fly aeroplanes, not watch other people do it. That's for me personally, I don't mean to disparage other pilots who see being an SO as a good career move. Indeed if I was younger I might look at an SO position with good career advancement, but VOZ doesn't seem to offer that.
But you have no choice, you need to get into a heavy jet, you need to get out of GA, and it's more money than you were earning in GA right?
That argument works when there is pilot surplus and I understand that when it comes down to a choice between surviving and not surviving, you take what you can get, but these are not those times boys. The airline industry is on the way up. The middle companies are hiring a lot of pilots and the top companies will be hiring soon too. This is the one time when you really can make a stand and say "I won't accept the first job that comes my way, I will only take a job that pays me what I'm worth." There is only one person who sets your wage, it's not those who have gone before you, it's not your prospective employer, it's you. If you accept low pay for a job then you are telling the world "this is what my job is worth, this is what I am worth." And you know what? It's true, when you accept **** pay, you are worth **** pay, and you make it just that much more difficult for everyone else to get what they think they are worth.
Of course that's easy for me to say. I don't want the job anyway, regardless of pay, because I don't want to be an SO, I'm here to fly aeroplanes, not watch other people do it. That's for me personally, I don't mean to disparage other pilots who see being an SO as a good career move. Indeed if I was younger I might look at an SO position with good career advancement, but VOZ doesn't seem to offer that.
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I must admit, I've never heard of anyone waiting 5 years to move up.
What a lot of people are missing is as a CRP, you don't do pushback and start, taxi (not that you do much in a Boeing when the capt has a tiler), take off and 2 minutes later autopilot goes on.
On the decent you miss out on decent planning (however if you are on the ball you sit in the third seat and do it yourself and see how you'd compare), slowing the plane, hand flying for a further 2 minutes before landing and shut down is omitted from the CRP remit.
Other than that you observe everything else, manipulate the autopilot, dodge round thunderstorms, make requests from ATC related to better airmanship and do most radio work and all paperwork.
There are worse jobs in aviation and some airlines place higher credence on this opposed to pootling about in a twin piston in the middle of nowhere.
Again, with respect to this role, do your homework, do your sums and then apply if its the right move for you, if its not hold off as it appears there is an upturn in Australian aviation.
Also hope all the ex-Ansett and grandpa/granny-visa holders flying for Easyjet in the UK don't want to come home and make it that little bit harder for you.
What a lot of people are missing is as a CRP, you don't do pushback and start, taxi (not that you do much in a Boeing when the capt has a tiler), take off and 2 minutes later autopilot goes on.
On the decent you miss out on decent planning (however if you are on the ball you sit in the third seat and do it yourself and see how you'd compare), slowing the plane, hand flying for a further 2 minutes before landing and shut down is omitted from the CRP remit.
Other than that you observe everything else, manipulate the autopilot, dodge round thunderstorms, make requests from ATC related to better airmanship and do most radio work and all paperwork.
There are worse jobs in aviation and some airlines place higher credence on this opposed to pootling about in a twin piston in the middle of nowhere.
Again, with respect to this role, do your homework, do your sums and then apply if its the right move for you, if its not hold off as it appears there is an upturn in Australian aviation.
Also hope all the ex-Ansett and grandpa/granny-visa holders flying for Easyjet in the UK don't want to come home and make it that little bit harder for you.
i am ex airline ops and some safety (30 years) but not a pilot.
i appreciate (kinda) what a cruise f/o is...
he would most likely be a more junior guy who gets big-jet experience for in-flight duties only as part of a 'heavy crew' as needed by legislation for L/Haul ops such as V-oz transpacific LAX-SYD 777-300er whilst the PIC's have their duty rest...am i correct?
i assume Voz have a Capt, snr f/o, and just the cruise f/o ? ?
or is the cruise f/o a 4th pilot?
all other heavy crews i have dealt with in the past the 3rd pilot is always another snr f/o or another capt.
if that is the case, is his training sufficient in the event of the other pilots being incapacitated, or otherwise (for whatever reason) in actually taking full control and say, taking over the 777 in an dire emergency, maybe on his own, say, on one or no engines, or emergency descent, then land at a remote pacific island (midway, or somewhere else) ?
do you follow me?
(i mean here IF he is the 3rd guy only)
i appreciate (kinda) what a cruise f/o is...
he would most likely be a more junior guy who gets big-jet experience for in-flight duties only as part of a 'heavy crew' as needed by legislation for L/Haul ops such as V-oz transpacific LAX-SYD 777-300er whilst the PIC's have their duty rest...am i correct?
i assume Voz have a Capt, snr f/o, and just the cruise f/o ? ?
or is the cruise f/o a 4th pilot?
all other heavy crews i have dealt with in the past the 3rd pilot is always another snr f/o or another capt.
if that is the case, is his training sufficient in the event of the other pilots being incapacitated, or otherwise (for whatever reason) in actually taking full control and say, taking over the 777 in an dire emergency, maybe on his own, say, on one or no engines, or emergency descent, then land at a remote pacific island (midway, or somewhere else) ?
do you follow me?
(i mean here IF he is the 3rd guy only)
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1st point - yes
2nd - unsure what VOz plans are, I worked and it was always 3 pilots (unless the capt was on a line check). If it was a junior FO the capt was generally a training captain. If it was a senior FO it was any line capt. Depends on the insurance policy and its restrictions as ot what VOz can do.
3rd - To work as a cruise pilot you have to attain a full type rating in that aircraft type. The only thing you don't get is absorption of skill by doing the role. Before assuming either of the front seats the company SOP was to brief the PF on the rapid decompression and double engine recall items. Cruise pilot would take on roll of PNF regardless of other 2 pilots pre-defined role in flight determined in flight planning phase in the office.
It is common that people look down their nose at you because of your status rather than your ability. One of the many misconceptions cruise pilots have to overcome with those not versed.
It's well within the capability of a commercial pilot who has attained a jet TR to perform the function of PNF during an emergency (QRH, Radio, Charts, Prepare for approach, act on instructions from PF such as "Gear Down, Flaps 30").
I fought with my airline to give me 3 TO and Landings every 90 days to keep me legal. Before I pressed for it they didn't do it. Tried to tell me as a cruise pilot I wasn't required to land or take off, agreed with them but pointed out my licence and rating was valid with the landings regardless of my role in flight. Obviously they didn't want to do this as it cost them money and they already saw the requirement of a CRP as superficial and an unwanted added cost.
2nd - unsure what VOz plans are, I worked and it was always 3 pilots (unless the capt was on a line check). If it was a junior FO the capt was generally a training captain. If it was a senior FO it was any line capt. Depends on the insurance policy and its restrictions as ot what VOz can do.
3rd - To work as a cruise pilot you have to attain a full type rating in that aircraft type. The only thing you don't get is absorption of skill by doing the role. Before assuming either of the front seats the company SOP was to brief the PF on the rapid decompression and double engine recall items. Cruise pilot would take on roll of PNF regardless of other 2 pilots pre-defined role in flight determined in flight planning phase in the office.
It is common that people look down their nose at you because of your status rather than your ability. One of the many misconceptions cruise pilots have to overcome with those not versed.
It's well within the capability of a commercial pilot who has attained a jet TR to perform the function of PNF during an emergency (QRH, Radio, Charts, Prepare for approach, act on instructions from PF such as "Gear Down, Flaps 30").
I fought with my airline to give me 3 TO and Landings every 90 days to keep me legal. Before I pressed for it they didn't do it. Tried to tell me as a cruise pilot I wasn't required to land or take off, agreed with them but pointed out my licence and rating was valid with the landings regardless of my role in flight. Obviously they didn't want to do this as it cost them money and they already saw the requirement of a CRP as superficial and an unwanted added cost.
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ex-Ansett and grandpa/granny-visa holders flying for Easyjet in the UK don't want to come home
you hope - Dream on
They are entitled to do just that. They have earned it, as well as having gained various extra aviation operating knowledge to bring. I too have spent a decade and a half outside Australia while others have enjoyed home comforts, so say if you want to stay put, then accept the limited advancement opportunities. Am entitled to time here now more than some, yet on application for a position, got passed over for imported non-nationals.
Sheez, some want it all handed on a plate.. CRZFO.. what a paper shuffling exercise - ( these days.. !?! ) Just hold out for FO T&C's if you want to get ahead.
Those charting the course in airlines should wake up to themselves.
you hope - Dream on
They are entitled to do just that. They have earned it, as well as having gained various extra aviation operating knowledge to bring. I too have spent a decade and a half outside Australia while others have enjoyed home comforts, so say if you want to stay put, then accept the limited advancement opportunities. Am entitled to time here now more than some, yet on application for a position, got passed over for imported non-nationals.
Sheez, some want it all handed on a plate.. CRZFO.. what a paper shuffling exercise - ( these days.. !?! ) Just hold out for FO T&C's if you want to get ahead.
Those charting the course in airlines should wake up to themselves.
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Am entitled to time here now more than some, yet on application for a position, got passed over for imported non-nationals.
If these non nationals were to be employed they would most likely come in under the infamous 457 temporary visa. Its possible that they could come in under the Employer Nomination Scheme as skilled migrants but I doubt VB would go to this level.
Write to your local member outlining your case. With employment being a hot topic they may just do something.
Other than that you observe everything else
To work as a cruise pilot you have to attain a full type rating in that aircraft type.
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Observing - I agree, however there is more merit to it than flying about in a traffic pattern in a C152 if your aim is to be a jet pilot. This role is primarily to allow the airline to satisfy a regulation. If you look at it as serving an apprenticeship and use the time observing and during the cruise well it should pay dividends in the future.
FO endorsement - Didn't know you get get a restriction put on your type rating to reflect this. I must admit, my licence is JAA and I don't know of this with any airline here. Maybe different in other parts of the world.
FO endorsement - Didn't know you get get a restriction put on your type rating to reflect this. I must admit, my licence is JAA and I don't know of this with any airline here. Maybe different in other parts of the world.
Yeah, Aus has FO endorsements, it's up to the company whether they want to give you a command endorsement or not.
It's not an apprenticeship though is it? Not in the case of Voz because there is no guaranteed career path through the company. It is possibly a dead end job requiring you to take yet another job with another company to do your real apprenticeship.
If you look at it as serving an apprenticeship and use the time observing and during the cruise well it should pay dividends in the future.
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I don't know enough about it, but you would think think that a company that has the reputation of Virgin wouldn't treat its pilots like crap. Because you do reap what you sow.
If you are paying for the B777 TR via a reduced salary bond, then I would argue you should be able to dictate you want it to include the command rating. I'ts not as if its a freebie (like it was back in the day or only with legacy carriers currently), its your cash that paying for it.
However if they want a little more of an input/fiddling in your career/future development and attractiveness to other airlines then the might insist you get the FO rating. Then they have a little more control. Not that you could go from CRP to Capt overnight.
I don't know if applicants will have much negotiation sway or just glad to get their feet in the door. However I would ask about it at 1st interview and if the answer wasn't satisfactory then I'd punt my services to another airline. If it was satisfactory I'd ask for something in writing at 2nd interview - previous experiences would lead me to ask for that.
If you are paying for the B777 TR via a reduced salary bond, then I would argue you should be able to dictate you want it to include the command rating. I'ts not as if its a freebie (like it was back in the day or only with legacy carriers currently), its your cash that paying for it.
However if they want a little more of an input/fiddling in your career/future development and attractiveness to other airlines then the might insist you get the FO rating. Then they have a little more control. Not that you could go from CRP to Capt overnight.
I don't know if applicants will have much negotiation sway or just glad to get their feet in the door. However I would ask about it at 1st interview and if the answer wasn't satisfactory then I'd punt my services to another airline. If it was satisfactory I'd ask for something in writing at 2nd interview - previous experiences would lead me to ask for that.