All Australian GA pilots annual award review 2009-10
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Thanks to everyone who has shown interest on this thread. There has been some good feedback and support. I yet again urge all GA pilots who view this thread to make a personal submission. Send emails in support of this thread to other GA pilots in the industry.. LETS GET THE BALL ROLLING FOR CHANGE.
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I have some questions.
1. When was the Award first published?... I'm lead to believe it was around the early 80's.
2. How was the award calculated? was it compared to other professions at the time? or was it based on the industry standard's at the time?
3. Since it's conception what has been the yearly increase? and how does that compare to other professions like Teachers, Nurses, police etc....
4. Why is it the AFAP are the guardians of the AWARD?
5. Why is it that increases to holding a Commercial licence... ie.. medical costs, ASIC, documents etc... have not been included as a pay increase?
6. Why is it that the award never gets cpi increases?
7. Why is that Professfional pilots get paid well below the Average wage, when other profesions like Teachers and nurses get close to or the average wage?
8. Why has the AFAP traditionally sat on it's hands and never helped GA.
I think it's time for GA union and as an earlier poster suggested have it a a branch of the TWU.
All pilots whether in GA or Airlines should be lobbying the FWA to increase the award. It's in everyones interest to see the bottom of the tree get a increase.
1. When was the Award first published?... I'm lead to believe it was around the early 80's.
2. How was the award calculated? was it compared to other professions at the time? or was it based on the industry standard's at the time?
3. Since it's conception what has been the yearly increase? and how does that compare to other professions like Teachers, Nurses, police etc....
4. Why is it the AFAP are the guardians of the AWARD?
5. Why is it that increases to holding a Commercial licence... ie.. medical costs, ASIC, documents etc... have not been included as a pay increase?
6. Why is it that the award never gets cpi increases?
7. Why is that Professfional pilots get paid well below the Average wage, when other profesions like Teachers and nurses get close to or the average wage?
8. Why has the AFAP traditionally sat on it's hands and never helped GA.
I think it's time for GA union and as an earlier poster suggested have it a a branch of the TWU.
All pilots whether in GA or Airlines should be lobbying the FWA to increase the award. It's in everyones interest to see the bottom of the tree get a increase.
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I believe the AFAP negotiated the GA award in the 1960's. Ask Lawrie Cox. I know it was around about then, although it was hard to get a copy of it for a while.
Yes everyone should write to the FWA, but make it factual and realistic, so they take your submission seriously. The award should be higher. Too many people think flying an aeroplane is like driving a car. It's not.
But there is a bigger, underlying problem.
Yes everyone should write to the FWA, but make it factual and realistic, so they take your submission seriously. The award should be higher. Too many people think flying an aeroplane is like driving a car. It's not.
But there is a bigger, underlying problem.
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If GA is ever recognised as an important part of our essential transport service (which it is. It is essential in 90% of our country) then conditions may improve. When airlines start doing ab initio training, (maybe contracted out) and simualator training for their new pilots so they can have direct entry to airlines, then GA can become the stable industry with properly trained, happy, well paid pilots that it must be.
While it is only considered to be a training ground for tightarse airlines to get new cheap pilots from, then the whole industry (including the airlines) will slowly degenerate.
It's time our airlines put some money back into the system that supplies their new pilots.
While it is only considered to be a training ground for tightarse airlines to get new cheap pilots from, then the whole industry (including the airlines) will slowly degenerate.
It's time our airlines put some money back into the system that supplies their new pilots.
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Air Pilots Award 2010 (3rd one down)
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Just confirming that Aerial Application is solely for Agricultural type work... and that Flight training does not fall in this category.
And therefore does the the Award cover for only a 38 hour week?
... and what would the deffinition of " ordinary hours of work" mean?
Is that duty? or does it not include Breaks?
Seeing that under Cao 48 you can work 90 hours a fortnight, if you did would you be entitled to work less the following weeks? or would you be entitled to over time?
And therefore does the the Award cover for only a 38 hour week?
24.2 Hours of work, days off and rest periods will be determined in accordance with the following provided that ordinary hours of work must not average more than 38 per week:
Is that duty? or does it not include Breaks?
Seeing that under Cao 48 you can work 90 hours a fortnight, if you did would you be entitled to work less the following weeks? or would you be entitled to over time?
Last edited by Charliethewonderdog; 4th Feb 2010 at 10:09.
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Then there is a yearly uniform allowance ($277 odd PA or $5 something per week), 1.8% loading for night ops (+ a transport allowance) and plenty of other small add ons
Trouble is you need to find an operator who has someone in payroll that knows how to apply these. Actually, someone who knows they exist and actually pay them. As long as there are people willing to work for free or crap pay like the award, operators will always treat us like SH%T!!!!!!!!!!
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Thats why they should just add these to the salary... atleast then they would have to pay it.
In this day and age if you get paid below the award you dont deserve to be called a professional.
In this day and age if you get paid below the award you dont deserve to be called a professional.
G'day again,
This thread seems to be slipping away... does this mean no one is interested?
Has anyone made a submission yet or is seriously going to? It seems most of the guys that i talk to want to just sign a group letter.
If anyone has made one or is thinking about it, or if anyone has done something similar in the past what should be included - just my personal situation or my perceptions of the industry or lots of figures or a mixture. Any help would be much appreciated.
Nosign, nice graph... where did you get your figures from? do you have copies of the awards you refer to?
This thread seems to be slipping away... does this mean no one is interested?
Has anyone made a submission yet or is seriously going to? It seems most of the guys that i talk to want to just sign a group letter.
If anyone has made one or is thinking about it, or if anyone has done something similar in the past what should be included - just my personal situation or my perceptions of the industry or lots of figures or a mixture. Any help would be much appreciated.
Nosign, nice graph... where did you get your figures from? do you have copies of the awards you refer to?
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Good Luck to all Pilots out there who may get a proper pay increase. I hope it happens.
Of course there is always good and bad sides to pay increases;
Operators can not absorb these costs. The margins are just not there (as proven by the recent demise of SFTC and Aerospace).
A large increase in Pilot pay will result in a large increase in the cost of learning to fly and air charter etc.
My guess is Australia will soon completely price itself out of the local and international training market as countries such as the USA, New Zealand and South Africa have Pilots who work for a lot less (in some cases NZ$10 per hour!).
My comments are not against a wage increase - just a forecast of what may happen to costs here.
Australians may soon go to New Zealand for a PPL or CPL in the same way Europeans go to the USA and South Africa.
Current Example NZ vs. Australia:
Auckland Aero Club
AA1-C trainer: NZ$152 per hour (A$121)
Instructor: NZ$50 per hour (A$40)
Royal Queensland Aero Club
C152: A$208 per hour
Instructor: A$99 per hour
Of course there is always good and bad sides to pay increases;
Operators can not absorb these costs. The margins are just not there (as proven by the recent demise of SFTC and Aerospace).
A large increase in Pilot pay will result in a large increase in the cost of learning to fly and air charter etc.
My guess is Australia will soon completely price itself out of the local and international training market as countries such as the USA, New Zealand and South Africa have Pilots who work for a lot less (in some cases NZ$10 per hour!).
My comments are not against a wage increase - just a forecast of what may happen to costs here.
Australians may soon go to New Zealand for a PPL or CPL in the same way Europeans go to the USA and South Africa.
Current Example NZ vs. Australia:
Auckland Aero Club
AA1-C trainer: NZ$152 per hour (A$121)
Instructor: NZ$50 per hour (A$40)
Royal Queensland Aero Club
C152: A$208 per hour
Instructor: A$99 per hour
Hey Rich,
Yeah i agree that a pay increase would obviously create additional commercial pressures on GA companies, the same way that increase fuel/maintenance/whatever costs do. I understand that the cost of flying would have probably have to increase to cover it.
However, unfortunately, we do not have the final decision as to whether we get an award increase. All we are asking is for some board to consider reviewing it. It's up to them to make the final decision as to whether or not they even review it let alone adjust it.
I think it's at least worth asking the question... and surely the more people asking the better.
Yeah i agree that a pay increase would obviously create additional commercial pressures on GA companies, the same way that increase fuel/maintenance/whatever costs do. I understand that the cost of flying would have probably have to increase to cover it.
However, unfortunately, we do not have the final decision as to whether we get an award increase. All we are asking is for some board to consider reviewing it. It's up to them to make the final decision as to whether or not they even review it let alone adjust it.
I think it's at least worth asking the question... and surely the more people asking the better.
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With a strong union pressure can be put towards NZ Casa to fix there pay problems or risk NZ pilots be black listed in Australia. This would hurt NZ pilots initially but would help them in the future.
Seriously NZ pilots are a bit a cancer on this industry... If you dont want to paid as a professional... PLEASE F -OFF and go do cleaning or something
.
China Southern and other flying schools in WA pay almost twice he AWARD... so pilots wages when it comes to winning large Chinese contracts dont seem to be a huge problem.
Seriously NZ pilots are a bit a cancer on this industry... If you dont want to paid as a professional... PLEASE F -OFF and go do cleaning or something
.China Southern and other flying schools in WA pay almost twice he AWARD... so pilots wages when it comes to winning large Chinese contracts dont seem to be a huge problem.
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Johnny_56:
I'm all for a more livable pay for Pilots. I'm just speculating on the future as Australia prices itself further out of General Aviation - compared to our near neighbour in particular.
Even before any potential increase in the Pilot award, The Auckland Aero Club is nearly half the price of RQAC for a basic dual flying lesson!.
AAC: A$161 dual p/h vs. RQAC A$307 dual p/h.
Charlie:
I'm not an expert on New Zealand Industrial Relations, however, i'm sure the NZ CAA has a similar detachment to Pilot pay as CASA does here.
Blacklisting is unrealistic. It's not the fault of Kiwi Pilots. All I have flown with are highly professional. They do not have any kind of award system in their Industry.
I would suggest there are more 'cancerous' Aussie pilots in the Industry. At least here there is an award - therefore no excuse for Aussie Pilots to work for low pay.
(BTW: Im not a Kiwi)
NZ just has a different system to Australia. It seems to work for them or the Kiwis would change it.
Just in the same way Australia can not manufacture cars without Govt. subsidies.
It's a modern economic reality. When Industries become unviable, they wither and die.
Australia may soon (5-10 years time) have very few flying schools. Charter companies may survive better.
Some schools such as China Southern WA may continue as their parent company is China Southern Airlines.
I'm all for a more livable pay for Pilots. I'm just speculating on the future as Australia prices itself further out of General Aviation - compared to our near neighbour in particular.
Even before any potential increase in the Pilot award, The Auckland Aero Club is nearly half the price of RQAC for a basic dual flying lesson!.
AAC: A$161 dual p/h vs. RQAC A$307 dual p/h.
Charlie:
I'm not an expert on New Zealand Industrial Relations, however, i'm sure the NZ CAA has a similar detachment to Pilot pay as CASA does here.
Blacklisting is unrealistic. It's not the fault of Kiwi Pilots. All I have flown with are highly professional. They do not have any kind of award system in their Industry.
I would suggest there are more 'cancerous' Aussie pilots in the Industry. At least here there is an award - therefore no excuse for Aussie Pilots to work for low pay.
(BTW: Im not a Kiwi)
NZ just has a different system to Australia. It seems to work for them or the Kiwis would change it.
Just in the same way Australia can not manufacture cars without Govt. subsidies.
It's a modern economic reality. When Industries become unviable, they wither and die.
Australia may soon (5-10 years time) have very few flying schools. Charter companies may survive better.
Some schools such as China Southern WA may continue as their parent company is China Southern Airlines.
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OK,
If you want to compare apples with oranges, go right ahead.
But before we do, how about we look at all of the other costs involved.
ie.
The dodgy manager who takes home quite a bit for not a lot.
Fuel prices
Airservice charges - AF about $20 out of the $32
Landing fees
Maintenance costs
Insurance costs
Admin costs
It seems to me everyone in this game is allowed to put their fees up and no one gives a hoot, but as soon as a Pilot wants more money, jeepers creepers no, we can't do that.
What we as pilots need to do is start having a say in the way the Govt has and is continuing to increase costs through CASA having to pay for itself. We got them to reduce the medical fee to $75, lets get them to abolish it, the Doctor did all the work and he/she is a delagate, (well sort of).
What I am trying to say is that we must reduce costs and become more efficient to keep a decent pay packet.
If you want to compare apples with oranges, go right ahead.
But before we do, how about we look at all of the other costs involved.
ie.
The dodgy manager who takes home quite a bit for not a lot.
Fuel prices
Airservice charges - AF about $20 out of the $32
Landing fees
Maintenance costs
Insurance costs
Admin costs
It seems to me everyone in this game is allowed to put their fees up and no one gives a hoot, but as soon as a Pilot wants more money, jeepers creepers no, we can't do that.
What we as pilots need to do is start having a say in the way the Govt has and is continuing to increase costs through CASA having to pay for itself. We got them to reduce the medical fee to $75, lets get them to abolish it, the Doctor did all the work and he/she is a delagate, (well sort of).
What I am trying to say is that we must reduce costs and become more efficient to keep a decent pay packet.
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Zoomy:
Here's your first port of call:
The Hon Anthony Albanese MP
Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government.
PO Box 6022
House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600
Tel: (02) 6277 7680
Fax: (02) 6273 4126
Email: [email protected]
Here's your first port of call:
The Hon Anthony Albanese MP
Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government.
PO Box 6022
House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600
Tel: (02) 6277 7680
Fax: (02) 6273 4126
Email: [email protected]