Night VFR Endorsement - worth it?
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Night VFR Endorsement - worth it?
Righto - apologies if this is a stupid question (first post and all that...) but here goes....
I've just got my CPL (with NZ CPL night rating) and MEIR over in kiwiland. I've moved over to Australia looking for work. I've spoken to a few operators 'up north' and most that have replied have said i'll need an Australian NVFR endorsement. Unfortunately, the NZ NVFR doesn't convert to Aus and I'm wondering whether forking out an addition c$3k is worth it. After a year training, budgets are tight.
I've got my instrument rating. I've also got 10 hours night flying. What I don't have is the 3hr / 100nm night cross country, and i haven't passed the Australian NFVR flight test.
I'd imagine, if i'm lucky (given the state of play at the moment), the first job i'm gonna get will be for a charter / scenic flight operator. Will there be a requirement to fly at night with this type of operation? and even with the NVFR endorsement you can't take passengers... So will I actually need the NVFR?
So, I put it to you good people, is it worth spending $ on getting this endorsement.......is the NVFR actually something worthwhile?
Cheers
I've just got my CPL (with NZ CPL night rating) and MEIR over in kiwiland. I've moved over to Australia looking for work. I've spoken to a few operators 'up north' and most that have replied have said i'll need an Australian NVFR endorsement. Unfortunately, the NZ NVFR doesn't convert to Aus and I'm wondering whether forking out an addition c$3k is worth it. After a year training, budgets are tight.
I've got my instrument rating. I've also got 10 hours night flying. What I don't have is the 3hr / 100nm night cross country, and i haven't passed the Australian NFVR flight test.
I'd imagine, if i'm lucky (given the state of play at the moment), the first job i'm gonna get will be for a charter / scenic flight operator. Will there be a requirement to fly at night with this type of operation? and even with the NVFR endorsement you can't take passengers... So will I actually need the NVFR?
So, I put it to you good people, is it worth spending $ on getting this endorsement.......is the NVFR actually something worthwhile?
Cheers
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Congrats on just gettin the CPL, i am also a recently minted CPL.
I have the Aust NVFR rating but havent really used it (the idea of flying cross country at night in singles doesn't really appeal). It seems strange to be a requirement if you already have a MECIR as i thought that would cover night flying anyway. You are right too that any role you get is prob going to be single dat VFR stuff. Might be worth saving the bucks!
I have the Aust NVFR rating but havent really used it (the idea of flying cross country at night in singles doesn't really appeal). It seems strange to be a requirement if you already have a MECIR as i thought that would cover night flying anyway. You are right too that any role you get is prob going to be single dat VFR stuff. Might be worth saving the bucks!
If it enables you to get your first job, then it is worth it, I had it 36 years ago!!!! And it was necessary then, otherwise I would not have obtained that first job at 200 hours T.T.......not necessary in a 777 these days, just part of the process.
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hmm... one flight of atleast 3hrs or 300Nm night cross country.
Is that night cross country under NVFR or night cross country under IFR? as it doesnt specify, i assume that night IFR nav's as past of the sylabus of a CIR covers the requirments to fly NVFR.
Discuss...
Is that night cross country under NVFR or night cross country under IFR? as it doesnt specify, i assume that night IFR nav's as past of the sylabus of a CIR covers the requirments to fly NVFR.
Discuss...
The only reason I would ever get an NVFR rating would be if I wanted to be an instructor and was absolutely sure that I would never ever want to do any flying other than as a VFR instructor.
Otherwise, why would you ever be stuck and unable to do a flight as NVFR when it could be done IFR?
Otherwise, why would you ever be stuck and unable to do a flight as NVFR when it could be done IFR?
I'm wondering whether forking out an addition c$3k is worth it.
Have you thought about doing it in a C172 rather than a C500?
Dr
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Yeah, it's working out at $3k for the endorsement - done in a 172
2 x 3hr Dual flights
1 x 2.5hr flight test....
If it means getting the job, great. But as funds are tight, not sure if it's an absolute pre-requisite??
2 x 3hr Dual flights
1 x 2.5hr flight test....
If it means getting the job, great. But as funds are tight, not sure if it's an absolute pre-requisite??
Any school worth their salt should do the NVFR as a part of the CPL course, rather than waiting till you've completed your hours and charging you as an added qualification.
Understood the original poster came fron Enzed, comments directed at Aussie trainees.
Understood the original poster came fron Enzed, comments directed at Aussie trainees.
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I managed to get a first job, and I did not obtain nvfr rating, I did however cover the syllabus requirements during cpl training and I did have a MECIR. I was going to do the test, but at $500 just for the testing officer at the time, I decided otherwise.
MECIR, NVFR, it can all be done before the CPL test. Of course the test has to be charged for, but my point was you might as well do something while building up your 150/200 hours.
Now you just have to keep your CIR current every year to keep your night privileges. Are you actually using your CIR for your first job?
Now you just have to keep your CIR current every year to keep your night privileges. Are you actually using your CIR for your first job?
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I dont actually use the rating unfortunatly, not yet anyway, however the extra understanding of IFR ops does not hurt, especially during the wet season up north. I just felt the $500 + aircraft hire was a bit steep for a nvfr test.
Most operators require it for charter quoting insurance purposes, however if they are short of pilots and pilots are thin on the ground they will bend the requirements to suit.
Also be aware that you will not make the grade in minimum hours so budget more than 3k. The NZ NVFR is a couple of bog laps up and down the coast with the city lights generally in view. The Australian NVFR is basically an Instrument rating without learning approaches. In terms of IF skill and black hole approaches at away aerodromes, the standard is pretty high.
For an ATPL issue, you require 100 hours night command. The only way to get it is to fly at night. You will also need 5 hours command for your instrument rating. I got a fair portion of my night hours on dead leg charters. I would simply wait until last light or depart before first and clock up what I could with the operators permission. (Scary stuff flying around the topend at night in a single)
Bottom line is to get it done and out of the way.
Also be aware that you will not make the grade in minimum hours so budget more than 3k. The NZ NVFR is a couple of bog laps up and down the coast with the city lights generally in view. The Australian NVFR is basically an Instrument rating without learning approaches. In terms of IF skill and black hole approaches at away aerodromes, the standard is pretty high.
For an ATPL issue, you require 100 hours night command. The only way to get it is to fly at night. You will also need 5 hours command for your instrument rating. I got a fair portion of my night hours on dead leg charters. I would simply wait until last light or depart before first and clock up what I could with the operators permission. (Scary stuff flying around the topend at night in a single)
Bottom line is to get it done and out of the way.
Was Arnellis' NVFR worth it?
Let's keep to the broader picture, shall we?
Let's say you need to ferry an aircraft after EOD (realistically, the only night flying you'll be doing as it's unlikely you're getting a twin job as your first gig). If you're not flying IFR Chtr ops and your employer doesn't pay to keep your CIR current, is it cheaper in the long run to keep your NVFR or your CIR current?
Agreed the CIR does give you an appreciation of IF ops, but so does NVFR. That's why it used to be called a Class 4 Instrument Rating.
As usual, GG is making good sense.
Under charter, only if you have a current CIR.
Let's say you need to ferry an aircraft after EOD (realistically, the only night flying you'll be doing as it's unlikely you're getting a twin job as your first gig). If you're not flying IFR Chtr ops and your employer doesn't pay to keep your CIR current, is it cheaper in the long run to keep your NVFR or your CIR current?
Agreed the CIR does give you an appreciation of IF ops, but so does NVFR. That's why it used to be called a Class 4 Instrument Rating.
As usual, GG is making good sense.
You can take passengers whilst flying NVFR
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 22nd Jan 2010 at 12:14.
Now guys, here's the kicker for those who anticipate using their CIR to conduct NVFR ops:
CAO 40.2.1 Para 14.1(b)
Charter flights under night V.F.R. procedures, provided the following
aeronautical and recent experience requirements are satisfied:
(i) Aeronautical Experience. The pilot’s aeronautical experience shall
include 10 hours cross-country flight time using night V.F.R.
procedures including a minimum of 2 navigation exercises (of at
least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration), as either pilot in
command or in command under supervision. Each exercise shall
exceed a distance of 100 nautical miles from the point of departure
and shall provide at least 1 landing at an aerodrome other than that
of departure, located in an area remote from extensive ground
lighting.
This applies if you do not have a NVFR and effectively means you have to have done even more than is required for the NVFR to use these privileges.
CAO 40.2.1 Para 14.1(b)
Charter flights under night V.F.R. procedures, provided the following
aeronautical and recent experience requirements are satisfied:
(i) Aeronautical Experience. The pilot’s aeronautical experience shall
include 10 hours cross-country flight time using night V.F.R.
procedures including a minimum of 2 navigation exercises (of at
least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration), as either pilot in
command or in command under supervision. Each exercise shall
exceed a distance of 100 nautical miles from the point of departure
and shall provide at least 1 landing at an aerodrome other than that
of departure, located in an area remote from extensive ground
lighting.
This applies if you do not have a NVFR and effectively means you have to have done even more than is required for the NVFR to use these privileges.
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I didn't bother as it is very unlikely to be a requirement for a vfr sep operator. It has not stopped me getting on with my career but its each to there own. I tend to work in Mountain regions so flying at night is suicide anyway.
Good luck in the big hot dusty island.
Good luck in the big hot dusty island.
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What's "scary" or suicidal about night flying in a single if it's done according to the regulations? You've been listening to too many new instructors who want to impress students with their feats of bravery and night flying in a single is about the most exposure to risk that they can imagine at this stage. Granted, there are other considerations to take into account from Day VFR, but night flying (single engine) is safe, and in some ways, more safe than flying during the day.
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MakeItHappenCaptain
Failing to remember that NVFR Charter requires a CIR... For AWK and PVT NVFR with a CIR, you just need to meet the NVFR Rating requirements.
This applies if you do not have a NVFR and effectively means you have to have done even more than is required for the NVFR to use these privileges.
The obvious problem with flying a single at night is that if the noise stops you might not have the visibility to find a good forced landing field.
That's not true at all. For an ATPL you require 100 hours of night experience, it doesn't have to be command.
Originally Posted by The Green Goblin
For an ATPL issue, you require 100 hours night command.