Night VFR Endorsement - worth it?
When you live....
I can't believe no-one has challenged the $3k budget for the NVFR (the rating). Costs here from Peninsula Aero Club non-member rates.
1. Shop around, try a country aero club or similar who will do the test, accept a bit of risk that there might be some remedial training and try and do the rating as 1 flight test. Might not work and you may need a second dip at it. Cost $250/hr dual or $150/hr plus test fee - 4 hours - $1000
2. Now, to use your NVFR rating for Charter ops - well, you already have it and so either a) hope that your employer may need to to ferry an aircraft at some point and do it NVFR - two flights, problem solved. Or b) with your NVFR rating, 3 hours 152 solo time at say $150/hr - $450.
Cost - min $750 (3 hours dual)/max $1150 - assuming your Enzed night thingy taught you to navigate and land at night and you understand the theory.
UTR
1. Shop around, try a country aero club or similar who will do the test, accept a bit of risk that there might be some remedial training and try and do the rating as 1 flight test. Might not work and you may need a second dip at it. Cost $250/hr dual or $150/hr plus test fee - 4 hours - $1000
2. Now, to use your NVFR rating for Charter ops - well, you already have it and so either a) hope that your employer may need to to ferry an aircraft at some point and do it NVFR - two flights, problem solved. Or b) with your NVFR rating, 3 hours 152 solo time at say $150/hr - $450.
Cost - min $750 (3 hours dual)/max $1150 - assuming your Enzed night thingy taught you to navigate and land at night and you understand the theory.
UTR
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green Goblin
For an ATPL issue, you require 100 hours night command.
That's not true at all. For an ATPL you require 100 hours of night experience, it doesn't have to be command.
Originally Posted by The Green Goblin
For an ATPL issue, you require 100 hours night command.
That's not true at all. For an ATPL you require 100 hours of night experience, it doesn't have to be command.
COPILOT time will take you forever especially if you fly a turboprop doing mine charter which is never at night.
The best option is night command
Best option for who? I didn't have anything like 100 hours night command when I got my ATPL. If the requirement really was for command I'd still not have an ATPL because I only started racking up night command hours once I got to regularly be in command of an aircraft at night, this was long after I'd started flying multi-crew.
As I said fella, you cannot use dual towards an ATPL anymore.
If you want to drive a regional turboprop as a Captain you need an ATPL. To get an ATPL with 100 night hours is quite difficult. Most guys don't get to clock up much copilot time at night as the majority of these operators fly during daylight hours (skippers, network, etc etc) If you get a job without 100 hours night command it will be a loooooong slog as a copilot to get a command with an ATPL.
Of course if you get into an operator like Virgin/Qantas/Jetstar or even Rex and QLink, this would not matter a great deal as you will do plenty of night copilot time.
So as I said the best option is to try and wrangle 100 command hours out in GA departing before/after first light in a singles and twins until you get it.
Obviously you don't get it
All those guys with 30 hours night flying turboprops during the day do get it
If you want to drive a regional turboprop as a Captain you need an ATPL. To get an ATPL with 100 night hours is quite difficult. Most guys don't get to clock up much copilot time at night as the majority of these operators fly during daylight hours (skippers, network, etc etc) If you get a job without 100 hours night command it will be a loooooong slog as a copilot to get a command with an ATPL.
Of course if you get into an operator like Virgin/Qantas/Jetstar or even Rex and QLink, this would not matter a great deal as you will do plenty of night copilot time.
So as I said the best option is to try and wrangle 100 command hours out in GA departing before/after first light in a singles and twins until you get it.
Obviously you don't get it
All those guys with 30 hours night flying turboprops during the day do get it
There can be advantages to being able to operate using NVFR procedures instead of IFR at night:
* LSALT can be calculated differently so sometimes a lower LSALT can be used
* Some aerodromes exclude IFR at night eg Scone used to prohibit IFR at night
There can be disadvantages too:
* Alternate requirements are different. Alternate due no navaid is more limiting using NVFR than using IFR at night.
* The rating - but not the procedures - is only available for PVT & AWK, not CHTR
However, having made the decision that NVFR is appropriate for the flight you then have to be qualified to use NVFR. You can either:
* hold a NVFR rating (duh) if PVT or AWK, or
* hold a CIR + have certain specified night flight experience using NVFR procedures.
An advantage of a NVFR rating is that the rating doesn't lapse so NVFR privileges never lapse. A disadvantage of using a CIR+night VFR experience is that NVFR privileges lapse when the rating lapses. No CIR renewal = no NVFR flights.
There are also recency & currency requirements that must be met for certain operations using NVFR procedures.
* LSALT can be calculated differently so sometimes a lower LSALT can be used
* Some aerodromes exclude IFR at night eg Scone used to prohibit IFR at night
There can be disadvantages too:
* Alternate requirements are different. Alternate due no navaid is more limiting using NVFR than using IFR at night.
* The rating - but not the procedures - is only available for PVT & AWK, not CHTR
However, having made the decision that NVFR is appropriate for the flight you then have to be qualified to use NVFR. You can either:
* hold a NVFR rating (duh) if PVT or AWK, or
* hold a CIR + have certain specified night flight experience using NVFR procedures.
An advantage of a NVFR rating is that the rating doesn't lapse so NVFR privileges never lapse. A disadvantage of using a CIR+night VFR experience is that NVFR privileges lapse when the rating lapses. No CIR renewal = no NVFR flights.
There are also recency & currency requirements that must be met for certain operations using NVFR procedures.
tmpffisch
vs 5 posts earlier
me
Difference being?
Failing to remember that NVFR Charter requires a CIR
me
Under charter, only if you have a current CIR.
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I think the kicker comes back to what we were discussing in the other NVFR thread TMPFFISCH. Most NVFR charter with a CIR is ME so you need to do that extra flight to get your MECIR night + SE NVFR crossed over to ME NVFR unless you want to ignore intent as I said.
To what I can tell, you need to do the same for what's required for a NVFR rating, not more....
CIR to use NVFR for Charter: minimum of 2 navigation exercises (of at
least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration),
That's more.
Eoc: the S/E NVFR with a ME CIR covers it, but if the CIR lapses, you're back to S/E NVFR only. My query of CASA and an ATO is that you can't get the SE rating "automatically" upgraded. Full test required.
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 23rd Jan 2010 at 06:42.
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Oh ok, I see what you're on about. When you said
raised my attention as I thought you were arguing that it was better to have a NVFR Rating.
Despite the CAAP from CASA saying "a flight test is not required for the removal of the limitation."?
This applies if you do not have a NVFR and effectively means you have to have done even more than is required for the NVFR to use these privileges.
Eoc: the S/E NVFR with a ME CIR covers it, but if the CIR lapses, you're back to S/E NVFR only. My query of CASA and an ATO is that you can't get the SE rating "automatically" upgraded. Full test required.
Originally Posted by Green Goblin
As I said fella, you cannot use dual towards an ATPL anymore.
Obviously you don't get it
I'm making an issue of it because it seems to be a common misconception among some pilots that you need 100 night command for an ATPL.
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While we're making sure what's posted is correct, its only PIC and Co pilot that can be counted.
5.172 Aeronautical experience: minimum requirements
(1) For the purposes of paragraph 5.165 (1) (f), a person’s
aeronautical experience must consist of at least 1,500 hours of
flight time that includes 750 hours as pilot of a registered
aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane.
(2) The 750 hours must include:
(a) any of the following:
(i) at least 250 hours of flight time as pilot in command;
command or as co-pilot.
(1) For the purposes of paragraph 5.165 (1) (f), a person’s
aeronautical experience must consist of at least 1,500 hours of
flight time that includes 750 hours as pilot of a registered
aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane.
(2) The 750 hours must include:
(a) any of the following:
(i) at least 250 hours of flight time as pilot in command;
(ii) at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in
command under supervision;
(iii) at least 250 hours of flight time, consisting of at least
70 hours of flight time as pilot in command and the
balance as pilot acting in command under
supervision; and
(b) at least 200 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(c) at least 75 hours of instrument flight time; and
(d) at least 100 hours of flight time at night as pilot in
command under supervision;
(iii) at least 250 hours of flight time, consisting of at least
70 hours of flight time as pilot in command and the
balance as pilot acting in command under
supervision; and
(b) at least 200 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(c) at least 75 hours of instrument flight time; and
(d) at least 100 hours of flight time at night as pilot in
command or as co-pilot.
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Makeithappencaptain, it is worth noting as GG said that most people take a bit more than the mins to meet the standard and as such now have the mins for NVFR charter under the authority of CIR.
Originally Posted by Green Goblin
As I said fella, you cannot use dual towards an ATPL anymore.
I wasn't aware that you ever could.
As I said fella, you cannot use dual towards an ATPL anymore.
I wasn't aware that you ever could.
I'm making an issue of it because it seems to be a common misconception among some pilots that you need 100 night command for an ATPL.
And I'm making an issue of your English comprehension as I never said you 'need' 100 hours for an ATPL, but rather the best way is 100 command i.e not the only way!
For an ATPL issue, you require 100 hours night command.
I apologize then, however I am well aware of the requirements for an ATPL issue.
We all used to/still count every 0.1 until we make the grade for that next hurdle i.e 500TT, 1000TT 500 ME, 1500TT, 1500 TT, 70IF, 100 Night.....And yes some COPILOT time went towards my 100 night, the majority being ME command and single engine dead leg charters. (back charters were good too
)
We all used to/still count every 0.1 until we make the grade for that next hurdle i.e 500TT, 1000TT 500 ME, 1500TT, 1500 TT, 70IF, 100 Night.....And yes some COPILOT time went towards my 100 night, the majority being ME command and single engine dead leg charters. (back charters were good too
)
Ahhhh
Now I know what my point was. Try and get 100 night command before you fly something that you need an ATPL but have no way of getting the night hours with minimal pickings from copilot hours. I then was referring to mining charter where it's majority day ops with no night.
I then referred to the guys with 30 hours night flying turboprops above 5700kg getting no night flying with no chance of converting to an ATPL for a command.
Now I know what my point was. Try and get 100 night command before you fly something that you need an ATPL but have no way of getting the night hours with minimal pickings from copilot hours. I then was referring to mining charter where it's majority day ops with no night.
I then referred to the guys with 30 hours night flying turboprops above 5700kg getting no night flying with no chance of converting to an ATPL for a command.
Despite the CAAP from CASA saying "a flight test is not required for the removal of the limitation."?
Go figure?
EOCVic, not disputing this fact at all. Again, any school worth their salt IMHO will be doing this (including the 2 navs) as part of a CPL.