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Merged: Pel-Air Westwind Ditching off NLK

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Merged: Pel-Air Westwind Ditching off NLK

Old 19th Nov 2009, 01:37
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 623
Gee, Mmmm. Sometimes you can only plan for 1 approach. From experience Norfolk and LHI can mean you only get one chance then off to the mainland or other alternate. Fuel critical situations can be very testing. Our remote islands are the only time we have ever needed CP and PNR calcs.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 01:42
  #22 (permalink)  
Silly Old Git
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I take it there is no precision app. aid at Norfolk?
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 01:52
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 180
Tinpis, no there isn't and its up on top of a cliff too, so very condusive to fog and cloud. AKL is the normal alternate carried for a jet.
Once I came in from Tahiti into there and could not descend and preserve my AKL alternate until VFR was confirmed from the FSU. The weather there can turn bad fast when Temp and dew point is close together.

Pleased to hear all walked away.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 02:23
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australia
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For those interested, just a few hours earlier, a RAAF 737 carrying the Governor-General had to divert back to Sydney, after not being able to land in Norfolk Island due to the bad weather conditions..

G-G's plane aborts landing, turns back | National Breaking News | News.com.au
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 02:27
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wood's Hole (N4131.0 W07041.5)
Posts: 92
Wonder What Official Report Will Say?

Most poster are correct - NLK can go down to the MNM irrespective of the TTF.

However, to make 3 (alleged) approaches (all unsuccessful) to NLK and (assumedly) burning ALTN fuel resulting in:
a. a zero option approach (3rd attempt = must land);
b. a ditching, however successful (result of zero option approach);
c. a allusion of "hero" status.

Facts: unsuccessful approaches (3); controlled aircraft ditching due exhaustion of contingencies/fuel.

Forget "stress" and subjective mitigators; to reiterate - min fuel = min options; zero fuel = zero options.

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Old 19th Nov 2009, 02:37
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Apartment
Posts: 106
Doesn't surprise me that the media are using the Cleo Bachelor thing.

Media outlets will try to differeniate themselves from each other and find an exclusive angle on a story. This sometimes just adds to the dumbing down and sensationalising of stories which in Aviation i always hate to see. Now i'll proberly have to field questions from punters about ditching, if i knew him and if i have applied to Cleo.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 02:38
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sand Pit
Posts: 343
I wonder, if we had adopted the FAA requirements some 15 years ago when regulatory reform began, whether this accident would have been prevented.

Requirement to carry an alternate:

1 hour before to 1 hour after ETA-

Vis <2sm (3.2km)
cig <3000ft

The FAA also does not allow charter or RPT aircraft to attempt an instrument approach unless the Wx is reporting above the landing minimums at the time of the intended approach.

If we had this rule in operation here, would the decision to divert to Noumea have been made well in advance of the first approach attempt?
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 02:40
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 180
Weapons Hot,

I think we agree on the picture.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 02:54
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Conargo Pub
Age: 35
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So far REX share price pretty much unaffected from yesterdays close.

Is this the same guy that was a SO with Qantas for a short time?

Last edited by Dances With Dingoes; 19th Nov 2009 at 04:09.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 03:04
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Downunder
Posts: 290
It'll be an interesting report, never been there but flown plenty around the Pacific a few years back, standard fuel for no alternate was 2 hrs island reserve.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 03:07
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 408
and they are throwing in:

performed his version of the remarkable Hudson River ditching of Captain Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger III.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 03:24
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: WA
Posts: 24
In reply to MJBow2, from memory it is stated in the CAR's (just escapes me where rite now), that an instrument approach shall not be commenced unless conditions are above landing minima....... it's one of those regs that you can never find it when your looking for it!
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 03:32
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Earth
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I take it there is no precision app. aid at Norfolk?
Ahh but there is a precision approach at SNF!
...too bad no-one has the equipment to do SCAT approaches though...
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 03:34
  #34 (permalink)  

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Enroute
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Ask them how many life jackets they had on board.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 03:35
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Weapons_Hot, mate exactly what I was thinking. The report im sure will explain alot but I also have to ask:

1. There may have been panic, but why did only 3 people have life jackets?
2. The flight must have had a PNR and CP so if he got current weather at that time and saw the weather was OVC002 why did he not divert?

But on a positive note...my hat off to the pilot for ditching safely at night with it overcast meaning no moonlight.

Thank goodness no one was seriously hurt.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 03:41
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Straya
Posts: 62
So, let's get this straight - they set up for a controlled ditching, but only three of them had time to get their lifejackets on?

What about the dinghy packs also carried?

Don't get me wrong - glad all worked out well; but as for 'well trained, and professional'....

I remember some years ago picking up a Westwind for an overwater flight and for some reason checking the lifejacket situation.....none found!

Looks like Pelair have again proven they deserve their 'reputation'.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 03:45
  #37 (permalink)  

Victim of a bored god

Join Date: Jan 1996
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John Sharp, Chairman of Pel-Air Aviation.....
Is that the same John Sharp, originally Qantas, then CEO Air Pacific and General Manager, TAA, immediately prior to TAA amalgamation with Qantas??
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 03:47
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US
Posts: 285
Hats off to the crew for the successful ditching.

However, just because the operation was "legal" does not make it safe, as has been demonstrated in this case. "Island hold" or whatever they call it is not on IMHO. Like playing Russian roulette. "On route alternates" or a decision at the PNR/Cps are another one, I will not entertain.

I don't give a damn what the bean counters think but to me "fuel in the tanks is money in the bank."

It is not a crime to have an accident but to run out of fuel, whatever the reason, is criminal. I hope someone can come up with a good reason why this "incident" came to be.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 03:52
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 186

The John Sharp ex Australian Minister for Transport and all things aviation.
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Old 19th Nov 2009, 04:01
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 389
Terrible situation to be in. As to how they got there will be determined.
I think I would rather have attempted an on airport landing by descending on the VOR appch from a calculated VDP on the 3* appch path to below minimums to a lit runway as a last resort rather than attempt a night ditching in pitch black conditions in bad weather.
Assuming that is the type of appch they were doing???
Pelair's aircraft are not equipped to do the SCAT 1 appch???
Great to see all survived

Last edited by aussie027; 19th Nov 2009 at 04:15.
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