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Merged: Pel-Air Westwind Ditching off NLK

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Merged: Pel-Air Westwind Ditching off NLK

Old 21st Nov 2009, 10:38
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: gold coast
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Jezz I love PRUNE. keeps me entertained everyday with crap like this.

Look a plane ditched.
Its like the second one i know about this year in AUS.
It will happen again and we will still be talking crap on Prune.
Life never changes.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 10:57
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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Not one of you 'mavericks' were there at the flight planning, takeoff, cruise, descent or approach phases of flight. Furthermore, not one of you were there during the approaches and subsequent missed approaches.
Got it in one Tempo. The PROFESSIONAL aviators would not have been there on the "descent and approach phases of flight. Furthermore, not one of you were there during the approaches and subsequent missed approaches. " Hell no. We would have been on the ground at our alternate REFUELLING.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 11:02
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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goldy - your post should be more in the line of "Why do I put myself through this, clicking on a link to a discussion about an accident, when I know I will waste some internet space myself complaining that people are actually discussing an accident!"

Westwind aircraft have two storage lockers that are only axcessable[sic] from outside the aircraft. Rafts are never stored here. The raft would have been placed near the door. But with the main door opening on ditching. Chances are it would have moved .I would expect the nose would have sunk quick also. 3 minutes to sink indicates to me that the foward[sic] cabin area would have been under a lot quicker. Add darkness, wave chop.ending up with a lost raft would not be impossible. My guess is they all would have been told to grab there vests. Some may have missed this in the panick.[sic]
Getting your story straight, "truthboy"? Hope you can get the passengers to go along with it ...
Trial by all the 'experts' on PPRuNe. Not one of you 'mavericks' were there at the flight planning, takeoff, cruise, descent or approach phases of flight. Furthermore, not one of you were there during the approaches and subsequent missed approaches. And most importantly, not one of you were there when the two pilots discussed their options and decided on a course of action. Instead, you watch the media hype, make character assessments on him using his cleo photo and then beautifully armchair fly the sector to perfection, passing on what you would have done.
Actually, yes, I am an 'expert', and would be considered so by any court in the land. I am endorsed, with over 1200 hours on this type, have worked for Pel Air in the past, and have been a professional in the industry for over 20 years with 12,000 hours in jet operations around the world, including long over water legs to remote islands (Christmas and Cocos, not Norfolk). Have to say, I haven't commented on the Cleo thing, but I understand it coming up as it isn't a "paparazzi" shot - but something he obviously posed for - so it does have some relevance to his past. I haven't watched the media hype, because I'm not in country at the moment.
Furthermore, not one of you were there during the approaches and subsequent missed approaches.
So, that's investigations sorted then - if you weren't flying the aircraft, you don't know what went on. No need for courts either.
"I'm afraid M'lud, we can't discuss this mugging, as my learned friend the prosecutor wasn't actually involved in beating up the old lady hisself!"

Last edited by Checkboard; 21st Nov 2009 at 11:16.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 11:58
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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I would expect the nose would have sunk quick also. 3 minutes to sink indicates to me that the foward cabin area would have been under a lot quicker.
This is not a WW1124 but the attitude in the water is important. Without crew they are naturally aft COG.

YouTube - Small Jet over shoots short runway and lands in the water.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 12:14
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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This one?

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Old 21st Nov 2009, 12:23
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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Given the Westwind has mid-mounted wings, and there was a swell running in the ocean, I don't think any valid comparisons can be made.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 12:45
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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231 replies over 12 pages in less than 3 days. .........we must be going for the record here

A young Cleo bachelor pilot ditches a jet just off the coast off a remote island.

If only the pilot had a Ron Jeremy moustache (hey, it is Movember isn't it ?), a plane load of playboy bunnies in the back and they didn't ever get rescued. Imagine the controversy then.

I am looking forward to the movie soon

Last edited by John Citizen; 21st Nov 2009 at 12:55.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 13:21
  #228 (permalink)  
Keg

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Thumbs down

Judging by most of the comments on this thread we need to change it from PPRuNe to perhaps APRUNE. I'm not sure if the A stands for 'amateur' or perhaps something anatomically aligned. How quick we are to judge without the facts. How quick we are to slag off journos when the don't get it right (all the time) but how quick we are to latch on to them as pure fact when what they report conforms to our own ignorant picture of the event.

I wasn't there but I'm looking forward to reading the report. Until then the crew get the benefit of the doubt and I'll let the professional investigators do their thing.

I'm with Tempo.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 13:33
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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Wonder how the insurance assessor will take it??? Yeah no worries shaggs. Aeroplane with no fuel in tanks at bottom of ocean?? LETS PAY OUT 100% "Med" pax swimming with the sharks. I sense post traumatic stress disorder looming large.

And for once, rightly so.

Cleo dude, you dip me or my mates in the ocean and ruby rose won't save you. Hero bullshit be stuffed. Hope Pel Air has indemnified staff. Big FAT Singapore Target.

Last edited by Iron Bar; 21st Nov 2009 at 14:02.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 13:46
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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The Facts?

APRUNE???

A stands for

Aeroplane . . . .

A deficit of Fuel . . . .

A lucky escape . . . .

An aeroplane on the sea floor . . . .

THE COLD HARD FACTS

Last edited by Iron Bar; 21st Nov 2009 at 14:13.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 15:18
  #231 (permalink)  
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Always liked your photos Philthy, nice work.
Makes the Westwind look good....


Wonder if there are better locations to make a "planned ditching" off NLK... such as near where the boats get launched.

Had this Capt. flown thru NLK before? If not then maybe he wasn't quite aware as just how shite the weather can be...



Hongkongfooey, they may be running out of Westwinds, but seeing as though both the replacement WW and the scheduled service went to MEL, would be interesting to know if and why the patient actually travelled on the scheduled service instead.....
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 17:23
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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Given the information in the public domain, perhaps the thread title should be changed to:

"Westwind CFIT off NLK"

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Old 21st Nov 2009, 19:54
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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Good pic Philthy

VH-NGA....

Not Going Anywhere

Last edited by silversaab; 21st Nov 2009 at 20:05.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 21:00
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Landing lights are on the tip tanks - see photo!
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 21:26
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, tip landing lights, with additional landing lights on the gear when it's put down. Would have easily had power as if I remember correctly, the landing lights will revert back off the main battery. Flaps were also electrically powered.

I also wonder about this report of the main door being opened. The Westwind has two outflow valves under the main door on the bottom of the fuselage which are pneumatically closed. These valves aren't like the airliner door type design and you cannot manually close them. You wouldn't need to open the main door to have water come flooding through the front of the aircraft.

Also the main door has inflatable door seal which when deflated was quite easy to see daylight through...
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 21:41
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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Also the main door has inflatable door seal which when deflated was quite easy to see daylight through...
Sometimes you could see daylight when inflated.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 21:48
  #237 (permalink)  
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Probably dumb question, will there be any attempt to raise it?

Or dive it?

Last edited by tinpis; 21st Nov 2009 at 22:00.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 21:51
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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The FDR and CVR must surely be on the top of the list.
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Old 21st Nov 2009, 23:41
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry to burst your bubble Tempo, but as a person that lives here on Norfolk Island who watched all 3 missed approaches and listened to all the coms, and pretty well everything else, most people are right on the money with what has happened.

How about a bit more of a plug for the real hero's, being the Norfolk people who risked their lives by putting a fishing boat in the water a night with crap wx. Lucky for local knowledge! Just imagine if the pilot did communicate earlier knowing the circumstances and ask for a bit of "local" knowledge from some of seasoned aviators on island, he might have got in through the gap on 04.
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Old 22nd Nov 2009, 01:53
  #240 (permalink)  
 
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Very serious

Below is direct from CAO...

remote island
means:
(a) Christmas Island; or
(b) Lord Howe Island; or
(c) Norfolk Island.


2.3 The
minimum safe fuel for an aeroplane undertaking a flight to a remote
island is:
(a) the minimum amount of fuel that the aeroplane should carry on that
flight, according to the operations manual of the aeroplane’s operator,
revised (if applicable) as directed by CASA to ensure that an adequate
amount of fuel is carried on such flights; or
(b) if the operations manual does not make provision for the calculation of
that amount or has not been revised as directed by CASA — whichever
of the amounts of fuel mentioned in paragraph 2.4 is the greater.
2.4 For the purposes of subparagraph 2.3 (b), the amounts of fuel are:
(a) the minimum amount of fuel that will, whatever the weather conditions,
enable the aeroplane to fly, with all its engines operating, to the remote
island and then from the remote island to the aerodrome that is, for that
flight, the alternate aerodrome for the aircraft, together with any reserve
fuel requirements for the aircraft; and

Civil Aviation Order 82.0
5
(b) the minimum amount of fuel that would, if the failure of an engine or a
loss of pressurisation were to occur during the flight, enable the
aeroplane:
(i) to fly to its destination aerodrome or to its alternate aerodrome for the
flight; and
(ii) to fly for 15 minutes at holding speed at 1 500 feet above that
aerodrome under standard temperature conditions; and
(iii) to land at that aerodrome.
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