Pilot's on Food Stamps
I'm with Runaway Gun. Double the salaries and double the fare, YOU'RE AWESOME!!!!! So that means the only cost of utilizing the aircraft is PILOTS!!!!!!! WOW, tell me what aircraft you're basing this on, I'm going to buy 20 and give VB a run for their money. TOOL.
Nunc est bibendum
Runaway Gun, it's general economic theory. Obviously us pilots aren't able to understand that. Even allowing for on costs and other bits and pieces it's pretty obvious the statement is a load of codswallop.
There's economic theory and economic reality. The reality is that until the demand for pilots exceeds the supply, conditions will remain p!ss-poor. Which will be for the rest of my career and then some. Operators won't pay a cent more than they have to until they actually have aircraft grounded for lack of crews, the leasing companies pounding on the door and passengers queuing up outside the terminal. There was a 'sweet spot' for pilots about 2 to 3 years ago when it did appear that aircraft would be grounded due to lack of crews. Now they are grounded due to lack of passengers. So the sweet spot did not last long enough for any long-term gains.
A strike won't work today any better than it did in 1989 because even if every airline pilot in Australia walked off the job, 'emergency' measures could be put in place just as they were last time to validate foreign licences. The economy would take a hit for a while but, as happened last time, it did recover.
Except for a few sh!thole places, the world supply of pilots is still in excess of demand, so we would be knocked over in the rush for our seats, should we collectively decide to vacate them. Sure, during the period immediately post-1989 there were numerous incidents and safety breaches, many of which were swept under the carpet. But nothing crashed, no-one got killed, so those in political power are unlikely to heed a safety argument.
Airline pilots are probably easier and safer to source from overseas than G.A. pilots would be, because of their common type ratings and the general similarity of IFR procedures on air routes everywhere in the world. What happened back in 1989 was quite disgraceful - both in the way government and the domestic airline managements conducted themselves - but also in the way that many of the 'band of brothers' broke ranks and took G.A. jobs which in turn affected the prospects of the younger ones just starting on the ladder. It was dog eat dog then and I don't think we pilots have evolved to more noble beings in just 20 years.
The fact that it is no longer an attractive career won't diminish the pilot supply. The QUALITY of the supply is another matter, as those further down the gene pool decide it would be fun to fly and to get one up on their mates driving taxis. While the ones further up the food chain give flying lessons a miss for more nerdy and profitable careers.
Airline managements will adapt to this trend as they always have - by moving their selection goal posts around to fit what is available at the time.
A strike won't work today any better than it did in 1989 because even if every airline pilot in Australia walked off the job, 'emergency' measures could be put in place just as they were last time to validate foreign licences. The economy would take a hit for a while but, as happened last time, it did recover.
Except for a few sh!thole places, the world supply of pilots is still in excess of demand, so we would be knocked over in the rush for our seats, should we collectively decide to vacate them. Sure, during the period immediately post-1989 there were numerous incidents and safety breaches, many of which were swept under the carpet. But nothing crashed, no-one got killed, so those in political power are unlikely to heed a safety argument.
Airline pilots are probably easier and safer to source from overseas than G.A. pilots would be, because of their common type ratings and the general similarity of IFR procedures on air routes everywhere in the world. What happened back in 1989 was quite disgraceful - both in the way government and the domestic airline managements conducted themselves - but also in the way that many of the 'band of brothers' broke ranks and took G.A. jobs which in turn affected the prospects of the younger ones just starting on the ladder. It was dog eat dog then and I don't think we pilots have evolved to more noble beings in just 20 years.
The fact that it is no longer an attractive career won't diminish the pilot supply. The QUALITY of the supply is another matter, as those further down the gene pool decide it would be fun to fly and to get one up on their mates driving taxis. While the ones further up the food chain give flying lessons a miss for more nerdy and profitable careers.
Airline managements will adapt to this trend as they always have - by moving their selection goal posts around to fit what is available at the time.
Originally Posted by Krusty
I guess it depends on what you do on the railways?
As a comparison, a possible position I'm looking at in Brisbane operates Driver-Only trains, pays trainee's about $75,000 and qualified blokes upwards of $86,000. You can go from off the street, to qualified in 6 months, if you're switched on...
lostwingnut's figures are really an eye-opener for me, as if you've been in the industry for 5 years, and are earning less than $60K, I both feel genuine sorrow for your plight, but also a grim satisfaction that I made the right call.
As it is I now I have to pay for flying, but get paid to play trains. Almost a win-win situation. If/when I get my new airplane it will be.
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Improving pilot T&Cs puts other pilots out of work
Just what did you base this fantasy equation on, roughly?
Generally speaking, no. (I know some here would disagree with this. And no, increasing the ticket price by $0.20 won't do it).
But the money must come from somewhere. Here is how it must be done:
Sack every odd numbered pilot and pay their salary to the even numbered pilots. The evens have now achieved the doubling of their salary.
But this would mean, of course, only half the number of pilots still flying - so there would be only half the number of aircraft flying.
So, the travelling public would be getting only half as far for their money (so as to speak). They would have to pay double what they did before, in other words.
As I said above, the travelling public would not accept this voluntarily. It would have to be forced upon them. How to do that?
Strike action.
Edited to add: Some here will not understand what I have written above. What I have said is: there is only one way to achieve immediate and significant improvements for pilots, and that is strike action. But that will put significant numbers of pilots out of work.
Last edited by FGD135; 14th Oct 2009 at 01:06. Reason: Added bottom bit
Like all things in aviation it always takes something big and bad to happen first before changes are made
after the military, and instead joined the railways. $45K in my first year, $65K in my second, and last year $95K including a little overtime and my meagre allowances.
Sydney Passenger Train Driver = $85-100k (more for a trainer)
Guard = $65-85k
Freight Train Driver = $140k+
Now I am finished I probably wont make that kind of money for a long time, if ever. This despite sinking $60k into training. There is something very backwards about that.
I don't regret doing it but recent trends in pilot T&Cs make me wonder whether I should bother to persue aviation as a long term career or fall back on my degree, find a decent paying, but boring job and fly my own plane on weekends.
I can't see the situation ever changing
For NSW its the RTBU (Rail Tram Bus).
Not the best union but probably in a stronger position than any in aviation. They only have to deal with a few large employers and have very high membership.
Not the best union but probably in a stronger position than any in aviation. They only have to deal with a few large employers and have very high membership.
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"Not the best union but probably in a stronger position than any in aviation. They only have to deal with a few large employers and have very high membership."
I don't regret doing it but recent trends in pilot T&Cs make me wonder whether I should bother to persue aviation as a long term career or fall back on my degree, find a decent paying, but boring job and fly my own plane on weekends.
Only go into flying if:
1. Someone else is paying, military or cadetship or
2. You are well cashed up and writing off $60K if it doesn't work out isn't going to affect you.
3. You have something else to fall back on that can give you an alternative career.
Going into debt or selling your house to fund flying training isn't a viable option these days given the poor and very uncertain returns.
I managed to get lucky and now fly an airliner BUT the terms and conditions are far less than I expected when I started flying and the race is on to the bottom.
Had I not scored this job I would be PMing KRvation to find out about getting on as a train driver.
Train Driver Jobs
Since I've had multiple PM's asking "How does one get a job driving trains?", here's the basics:
I work for Pacific National, in Newcastle on coal trains. The Coal division is after new trainees for Newcastle, Mudgee, Antiene (Muswellbrook) and Port Kembla depots. Look on the company website here about 4 jobs down and follow the links. Sell any heavy vehicle experience you've got, your attitude to safety and following the rules, as well as being a team player. "Liasing with Air Traffic Control, refuelling staff, passengers and maintenance personnell" sounds good to managers.
Queensland Rail is also on the lookout for people. Otherwise use Seek and search for "Locomotive".
Depending who and where you work will depend on how much you get paid (It varies depending on hours worked, train types, crewing arrangements and a host of other things), but straight off the street you'll be on around $35,000 during your 3 months probation, then step up to around $60,000 or so, and when you get qualified (12-24 months depending on depot) you can expect as a minimum $80,000 or thereabouts. The $140K+ talked of a page or two ago is limited to the Iron Ore trains in WA pretty much.
The hours genuinely suck, shifts can be worked upto 11 hours generally, with around 11 hours (minimum) off between shifts, but this will vary with who and where you work. Depending on what depot you're at you might do "barracks" working, our version of onvernight trips, where you'll signoff away from your home base and then work a train home the next shift. Reasonable $$ doing this, as you get meal allowances and the like.
Overtime is paid for working on your RDO's and if you exceed 152 hours per 4 week cycle, which is easy to do here, but other depots won't even get close. for PN, it's paid at 1.7x your base rate. Be warned though, officially my base rate is about $55,000, and various percentages currently 27.5% make up our "Aggregate Rate" which is the absolute minimum you'll earn a year. It is this "Aggregate Rate" that I called my base rate on the previous page when I referred to the $75,000 salary.
Leave is 5 weeks a year, 15 days sick leave a year (Varies with employers), some operators pay penalties if your rostered shift changes (we don't get that) and equipment varies between locomotives that are nearly 50 years old to some of the latest engines on rails.
Air con is fitted to all locomotives, some have CD players, all have fridges kettles and hotplates, some have microwaves, and the majority have loo's fitted, even though on the older loco's this just drops straight through to the trackbed.
If anyone's planning on applying, forget having a social life, and be warned that driving trains has resulted in many marriage breakdowns due to the shiftwork and godawful hours. But in saying that, the $$ are alright, and it certainly isn't a phyiscally demanding job.
I wouldn't be caught doing anything else.
I work for Pacific National, in Newcastle on coal trains. The Coal division is after new trainees for Newcastle, Mudgee, Antiene (Muswellbrook) and Port Kembla depots. Look on the company website here about 4 jobs down and follow the links. Sell any heavy vehicle experience you've got, your attitude to safety and following the rules, as well as being a team player. "Liasing with Air Traffic Control, refuelling staff, passengers and maintenance personnell" sounds good to managers.
Queensland Rail is also on the lookout for people. Otherwise use Seek and search for "Locomotive".
Depending who and where you work will depend on how much you get paid (It varies depending on hours worked, train types, crewing arrangements and a host of other things), but straight off the street you'll be on around $35,000 during your 3 months probation, then step up to around $60,000 or so, and when you get qualified (12-24 months depending on depot) you can expect as a minimum $80,000 or thereabouts. The $140K+ talked of a page or two ago is limited to the Iron Ore trains in WA pretty much.
The hours genuinely suck, shifts can be worked upto 11 hours generally, with around 11 hours (minimum) off between shifts, but this will vary with who and where you work. Depending on what depot you're at you might do "barracks" working, our version of onvernight trips, where you'll signoff away from your home base and then work a train home the next shift. Reasonable $$ doing this, as you get meal allowances and the like.
Overtime is paid for working on your RDO's and if you exceed 152 hours per 4 week cycle, which is easy to do here, but other depots won't even get close. for PN, it's paid at 1.7x your base rate. Be warned though, officially my base rate is about $55,000, and various percentages currently 27.5% make up our "Aggregate Rate" which is the absolute minimum you'll earn a year. It is this "Aggregate Rate" that I called my base rate on the previous page when I referred to the $75,000 salary.
Leave is 5 weeks a year, 15 days sick leave a year (Varies with employers), some operators pay penalties if your rostered shift changes (we don't get that) and equipment varies between locomotives that are nearly 50 years old to some of the latest engines on rails.
Air con is fitted to all locomotives, some have CD players, all have fridges kettles and hotplates, some have microwaves, and the majority have loo's fitted, even though on the older loco's this just drops straight through to the trackbed.
If anyone's planning on applying, forget having a social life, and be warned that driving trains has resulted in many marriage breakdowns due to the shiftwork and godawful hours. But in saying that, the $$ are alright, and it certainly isn't a phyiscally demanding job.
I wouldn't be caught doing anything else.
And here's how to get on as an airline pilot:
I work for a low cost carrier in Asia, to get on you will need a CPL and a type rating total cost around $100 000. We don't pay for any of this so it's out of your own pocket, nor do we pay while you take around 18 months to complete everything. Pray your licence issue co incides with us hiring and not a down turn like we're just coming out of.
Pay and conditions are on a downward slide with rumours of cuts, as an f/o I made around AU$110 000 last year with no benefits and living in a high cost country. Skipper makes 50% more, time to upgrade 1-4 years depending on ability and turnover. 5/2 5/4 roster pattern 25 days of leave ie 5 x 5 day blocks you can have off. 1000 hrs per year, no pay if you work on a day off but you get it back later on.
Generally good equipment, brand new jets with a few slightly tired ones. Air con, no CD players, no fridge, water boiler and conventional oven available bring your own lunch. All have loos, vacuum operated.
The hours often suck with many early sign ons and back of the clock operations. Rostered anything from 4 to 13 hours duty time. Start and finish at home base, no day or night stops.
If anyone's planning on applying, forget having a social life, and be warned that driving aircraft has resulted in many marriage breakdowns due to the shiftwork and godawful hours. But in saying that, the $$ are alright, and it certainly isn't a phyiscally demanding job.
Anyone contemplating a piloting career should be aware that even if they are lucky at every stage it will take years to break even compared to using their $100K to buy an investment property and working as a train driver. If stuck in the instructing/charter/regional levels for any length of time you may never be ahead.
Which of those rail companies were recruiting ?
I work for a low cost carrier in Asia, to get on you will need a CPL and a type rating total cost around $100 000. We don't pay for any of this so it's out of your own pocket, nor do we pay while you take around 18 months to complete everything. Pray your licence issue co incides with us hiring and not a down turn like we're just coming out of.
Pay and conditions are on a downward slide with rumours of cuts, as an f/o I made around AU$110 000 last year with no benefits and living in a high cost country. Skipper makes 50% more, time to upgrade 1-4 years depending on ability and turnover. 5/2 5/4 roster pattern 25 days of leave ie 5 x 5 day blocks you can have off. 1000 hrs per year, no pay if you work on a day off but you get it back later on.
Generally good equipment, brand new jets with a few slightly tired ones. Air con, no CD players, no fridge, water boiler and conventional oven available bring your own lunch. All have loos, vacuum operated.
The hours often suck with many early sign ons and back of the clock operations. Rostered anything from 4 to 13 hours duty time. Start and finish at home base, no day or night stops.
If anyone's planning on applying, forget having a social life, and be warned that driving aircraft has resulted in many marriage breakdowns due to the shiftwork and godawful hours. But in saying that, the $$ are alright, and it certainly isn't a phyiscally demanding job.
Anyone contemplating a piloting career should be aware that even if they are lucky at every stage it will take years to break even compared to using their $100K to buy an investment property and working as a train driver. If stuck in the instructing/charter/regional levels for any length of time you may never be ahead.
Which of those rail companies were recruiting ?
Last edited by Metro man; 15th Oct 2009 at 12:24.
