710m TODA - Enough for a Baron 58?
I always found the baron a beast on the takeoff but required a lot of runway to land as she was a slippery little bugger.....
700 will be fine most of the time but on the odd occasion it will scare you.
I used to work out conditions for every aeroplane I flew as a worse case scenario, it it were better on the day I was right to go. 40 Degrees, 5000 PH, 5 knot tail wind with a downslope and see what the figure is. If you were better than that then you were right to go!
700 will be fine most of the time but on the odd occasion it will scare you.
I used to work out conditions for every aeroplane I flew as a worse case scenario, it it were better on the day I was right to go. 40 Degrees, 5000 PH, 5 knot tail wind with a downslope and see what the figure is. If you were better than that then you were right to go!
Sprucegoose
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Lengthening is out of the question as it one end has a deep gorge with a river at the bottom and the other end is bounded by a public road.
Keep in mind we haven't even discussed the accelrate/stop, accelerate/go scenarios, which I expect would yield a figure of closer to 1000M.
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The question for me would it really HAVE to be a Baron....? If you are struggling to get approval for an aircraft at all, you might struggle to get approval for a Baron. Perhaps something else might be more suitable?
[QUOTE]Keep in mind we haven't even discussed the accelrate/stop, accelerate/go scenarios, which I expect would yield a figure of closer to 1000M. [QUOTE]
Yeah I reckon about 1000m as well.
Yeah I reckon about 1000m as well.
I don't have B58 numbers but....
...I do have D55 figures. Remember the D55 has the big donks but the lightest fuselage, so its performance is better than the B58.
Using "normal" take-off technique:
TODR for a D55 is 678m at ISA+20 and a PH of 4000', level, nil wind.
ASDR for a D55 is 1463m under the same conditions and is still over 1000m at ISA-20 and SL.
This does not mean you can't use the strip - but it means you should probably limit your t/o weights because if the noise stops on one side at >84 knots, you won't be stopping
Using "normal" take-off technique:
TODR for a D55 is 678m at ISA+20 and a PH of 4000', level, nil wind.
ASDR for a D55 is 1463m under the same conditions and is still over 1000m at ISA-20 and SL.
This does not mean you can't use the strip - but it means you should probably limit your t/o weights because if the noise stops on one side at >84 knots, you won't be stopping
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I assume by what I read above you do not actually have a plane either.
So if you like the property and you do not need the extra couple of seats, there are many other a/c that may be a better option.
I saw a very nice Retard Vehicle -10 for sale in the last Aviation Trader. 4 Adults fuel and gear......no problems!
Even one of those V Tailed things would just make it! Albeit a bit slower.....
So if you like the property and you do not need the extra couple of seats, there are many other a/c that may be a better option.
I saw a very nice Retard Vehicle -10 for sale in the last Aviation Trader. 4 Adults fuel and gear......no problems!
Even one of those V Tailed things would just make it! Albeit a bit slower.....
Grandpa Aerotart
Jesus wept - Stop way/clear way/accelerate stop/accelerate go/TODR/LDR
The thread starter is asking about a potential private operation off a private strip - not running a RPT operation
I once watched a 'pilot' barely stop a B58 on 11L at ysbk in light rain - because he was landing too fast - a VERY common practice. Land a Baron at 1.3 Vs for your actual weight and they can be landed very short indeed. When you get very comfortable in the aircraft 1.2 Vs is even better.
Vso (MAUW) in a B58 is 74kts. At typical landing weights its more like 68-70kts. Vref of 84-91kts works well. 100-110 kts + does not.
LDR is from 50' to stopped. TODR is from brakes release to 50'. Ignoring for a moment that these are certification numbers that bare little resemblance to real life neither of those 'points in space' need to be/should be/are required to be over the runway.
What?
Clearway.
Specified Height = 50'.
The thread starter has a TORA/ASDA of 710m. Un-factored TORR for a B58 at MAUW is 425m and about 434m for landing run - ISA MSL of course. He has stated that there are no obstacles in the approach or departure paths.
Call it 440m for both - x 1.60 = 704m.
Anyone going to suggest that factoring by 60% is less than conservative?
The only thing the thread starter needs to search his soul about is whether he can,
1/. REALLY afford the care and feeding of a Baron and,
2/. Is he up to flying the aircraft correctly and precisely.
NOT whether the proposed airstrip is long enough.
The thread starter is asking about a potential private operation off a private strip - not running a RPT operation
I always found the baron a beast on the takeoff but required a lot of runway to land as she was a slippery little bugger.
Vso (MAUW) in a B58 is 74kts. At typical landing weights its more like 68-70kts. Vref of 84-91kts works well. 100-110 kts + does not.
LDR is from 50' to stopped. TODR is from brakes release to 50'. Ignoring for a moment that these are certification numbers that bare little resemblance to real life neither of those 'points in space' need to be/should be/are required to be over the runway.
Neither a road, nor a gorge are suitable as a clearway
Clearway.
A defined area at the end of the take-off run available on the ground or water under the control of the aerodrome operator, selected or prepared as a suitable area over which an aeroplane may make a portion of its initial climb to a specified height.
The thread starter has a TORA/ASDA of 710m. Un-factored TORR for a B58 at MAUW is 425m and about 434m for landing run - ISA MSL of course. He has stated that there are no obstacles in the approach or departure paths.
Call it 440m for both - x 1.60 = 704m.
Anyone going to suggest that factoring by 60% is less than conservative?
The only thing the thread starter needs to search his soul about is whether he can,
1/. REALLY afford the care and feeding of a Baron and,
2/. Is he up to flying the aircraft correctly and precisely.
NOT whether the proposed airstrip is long enough.
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Jesus wept - Stop way/clear way/accelerate stop/accelerate go/TODR/LDR
The thread starter is asking about a potential private operation off a private strip - not running a RPT operation
The thread starter is asking about a potential private operation off a private strip - not running a RPT operation
I will stand by my original 900(ish) metres!
By the way...
Clearway.
A defined area at the end of the take-off run available on the ground or water under the control of the aerodrome operator, selected or prepared as a suitable area over which an aeroplane may make a portion of its initial climb to a specified height.
A defined area at the end of the take-off run available on the ground or water under the control of the aerodrome operator, selected or prepared as a suitable area over which an aeroplane may make a portion of its initial climb to a specified height.
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Guptar
I was just going to sit and watch this one, but like all the above who answered your enquiry, here's my little bit.
Both Baron types would do it privately. Have carried big loads in and out of similar sized strips that have had the figures done on them for RPT margins for Company use. It usually depends on weight. The 55 with the big engines and big flaps would be better but you lose the double doors. (Harder to load a rectangular coffin into !!). As always the devil is in the detail. Now I'm no expert, and some of those who are could maybe do it better, but it would be up to you on the day to decide, (and you'd be the pilot, right?) if that grass was wet from dew or rain and braking would be a problem, you flew accurately to your calculated final approach speed for the weight (as Chimbu said), if there was a crane passing on the road while on short final (have had yacht masts cross extended centrelines on occasions), crosswinds, poor vis., temperatures, and all those other little things to take into account on T.O. and Landing. And some of the strips we went to were only rostered for the more experienced pilots. So the buck stops with you. If you think you can handle it fine, just do your homework from hard data some where, have someone good do a practise one for you first while you ride along watching, then make your decision with what you are comfortable with. Commanders are responsible for any F...ups. That is a point that is harder to get across these days with testing budgets but little ongoing training. (You just have to have discipline in your flying) And just because I have told you this, and something unmentionable happens, I'm not responsible. You're the Captain.
If you want to invite your friends in their 58's who havn't been in before to land on your strip, then you had better tell them all about it in advance, and stress that THEY are the Captain!
(I keep forgetting this is a P.P.sRumour Network) (Now THAT is a Rumour)
I was just going to sit and watch this one, but like all the above who answered your enquiry, here's my little bit.
Both Baron types would do it privately. Have carried big loads in and out of similar sized strips that have had the figures done on them for RPT margins for Company use. It usually depends on weight. The 55 with the big engines and big flaps would be better but you lose the double doors. (Harder to load a rectangular coffin into !!). As always the devil is in the detail. Now I'm no expert, and some of those who are could maybe do it better, but it would be up to you on the day to decide, (and you'd be the pilot, right?) if that grass was wet from dew or rain and braking would be a problem, you flew accurately to your calculated final approach speed for the weight (as Chimbu said), if there was a crane passing on the road while on short final (have had yacht masts cross extended centrelines on occasions), crosswinds, poor vis., temperatures, and all those other little things to take into account on T.O. and Landing. And some of the strips we went to were only rostered for the more experienced pilots. So the buck stops with you. If you think you can handle it fine, just do your homework from hard data some where, have someone good do a practise one for you first while you ride along watching, then make your decision with what you are comfortable with. Commanders are responsible for any F...ups. That is a point that is harder to get across these days with testing budgets but little ongoing training. (You just have to have discipline in your flying) And just because I have told you this, and something unmentionable happens, I'm not responsible. You're the Captain.
If you want to invite your friends in their 58's who havn't been in before to land on your strip, then you had better tell them all about it in advance, and stress that THEY are the Captain!
(I keep forgetting this is a P.P.sRumour Network) (Now THAT is a Rumour)
Last edited by frigatebird; 28th Sep 2009 at 11:52. Reason: add word privately
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Nice post Chuckles 
I know of an Arrow that is operating out of a private strip at 350 metres.
I know of a Skyfox that operates out of 950 ft / 290 metres.
I know of a Gazelle operating at 350 metres.
and a Chieftain @ 800 metres..... that one is a little tight.
Have also seen an RV6 operating at less than 200 meters reliably.
There are so many variables and the biggest one is the nut behind the wheel !
I know of an Arrow that is operating out of a private strip at 350 metres.
I know of a Skyfox that operates out of 950 ft / 290 metres.
I know of a Gazelle operating at 350 metres.
and a Chieftain @ 800 metres..... that one is a little tight.
Have also seen an RV6 operating at less than 200 meters reliably.
There are so many variables and the biggest one is the nut behind the wheel !
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Jaba, I can't believe how much speed that thing has up at the start, looks like it's only a few metres from the fence behind it ! Is that the 125 metre strip we were discussing recently?
If you can't lengthen it then you have to trade off between a high risk Baron or a low risk C206 / Cherokee 6 / Bonanza or even C182 if you want smaller.
For a Baron, you will need a short field technique each and every time, and stay current at it. At some point, rain / turb / Xwind, or high GW and DH, you are going to be very marginal in any Baron and one principle to stick to is: - don't do something that you don't really need to do.
Someone above raised the good point that if you get a Baron in, someone else will try the same with theirs - perhaps not a good idea.
So whats the GPS lat/long ??? We'll put it up on Google Erf and see if it's really Baronable. Question 2 - who/what do you want do fly in and out, and do you need something in IFR category ?
For a Baron, you will need a short field technique each and every time, and stay current at it. At some point, rain / turb / Xwind, or high GW and DH, you are going to be very marginal in any Baron and one principle to stick to is: - don't do something that you don't really need to do.
Someone above raised the good point that if you get a Baron in, someone else will try the same with theirs - perhaps not a good idea.
So whats the GPS lat/long ??? We'll put it up on Google Erf and see if it's really Baronable. Question 2 - who/what do you want do fly in and out, and do you need something in IFR category ?
Jaba, I can't believe how much speed that thing has up at the start, looks like it's only a few metres from the fence behind it !
I have NEVER heard that word used to describe a Savannah!
Trust me XXX - its an optical illusion!
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Firstly read your FM or POH. This is what the Insurance Comany, CASA and ATSB WILL go off if you goof up! Secondly, it depends on surface condition, bumps, slope, temp, elevation and WIND. Work out your x/w component thoroughly. I have seen many a fine aircraft go through the bottom fence beause of incorrect wind assessment.NOW, we USED to put a late model 58 into 614m....very tight. HOWEVER we were flying max hours EVERY day and knew the aircraft extremely well.
If I were you, and if you are low time on type I would use 700/900 as my benchmark. As you got more proficient you will shorten this up considerably. Practise on a long strip and practise short short landings. Honestly mate that 600m strip had me on the edge of the seat on every landing. It must feel like you are going to land well B4 the start of the strip. Good luck with it.
Where aeroplanes are concerned, getting out is generally a bigger issue than getting in - in my experience
eg TO 407/640 m LDG 438/761 m
Dr
I guess that would make sense!
For many (most?) aircraft the opposite is true!
eg C402B TO: 516/676 m LDG: 236/537 m
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 29th Sep 2009 at 08:53.
Correction
TO distances are less than the Landing distances
Not much point being able to takeoff if you can't land back on it!!
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I regularly take the Bonanza in and out of 600 m - it does that comfortably in most conditions.
The POH + 10-15% seems like a good idea for planning purposes.
The TODR is the actual POH figure using Declared Density or actual conditions MULTIPLIED by the linear interpolation safety factor.
The LDR is the actual POH figure using Declared Density MULTIPLIED by the linear interpolation safety factor. There is no ATIS so actual conditions will be unavailable.
Take Off
An aeroplane must not take off at a weight in excess of the least of the weights determined in accordance with subparagraphs (a) to (d):
(a) a weight at which the take-off distance required under subsection 6 for the pressure height, temperature, runway slope (if in excess of 1%) and wind component along the runway, is equal to or less than the take-off distance available in the direction of take-off. Approved declared conditions may be used instead of actual pressure height and temperature;
(b) a weight which will permit compliance with the take-off climb requirements specified in subsection 7 taking into account ambient temperature and pressure height. Approved declared temperature and pressure height may be used instead of ambient conditions;
(c) a weight which will permit compliance with the en-route climb requirements specified in subsection 8;
(d) a weight which, allowing for normal consumption of fuel and oil in flight and taking into account either the forecast temperature and pressure or approved declared conditions, will permit compliance with the landing distance limitations specified in subsection 10 related to the longest available landing length under conditions of zero wind.
and
Subject to paragraph 6.3, the take-off distance required is the distance to accelerate from a standing start with all engines operating and to achieve take-off safety speed at a height of 50 feet above the take-off surface, multiplied by the following factors:
(a) 1.15 for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights of 2 000 kg or less;
(b) 1.25 for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights of 3 500 kg or greater; or
(c) for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights between 2 000 kg and 3 500 kg, a factor derived by linear interpolation between 1.15 and 1.25 according to the maximum take-off weight of the aeroplane.
LANDING
Except in an emergency, an aeroplane must not land at a weight in excess of the least of the weights determined in accordance with subparagraphs (a) and (b):
(a) a weight at which the landing distance required in accordance with subsection 10 for the pressure height, temperature, runway slope (if in excess of 1%), and wind component along the runway at the time of landing, is equal to or less than the landing distance available in the direction of landing. Approved declared conditions may be used instead of actual pressure height and temperature;
Issue 4: 8 December 2004 Amdt No. 212 -3- SECTION 20.7.4 Issue 4
(b) a weight which will permit compliance with the landing climb requirements specified in subsection 9, taking into account the elevation of the aerodrome of landing instead of actual pressure height and temperature.
AND
Subject to paragraphs 10.3 and 10.4, an aeroplane must not land unless the landing distance available is equal to or greater than the distance required to bring the aeroplane to a complete stop or, in the case of aeroplanes operated on water, to a speed of 3 knots, following an approach to land at a speed not less than 1.3VS maintained to within 50 feet of the landing surface. This distance is to be measured from the point where the aeroplane first reaches a height of 50 feet above the landing surface and must be multiplied by the following factors:
(a) 1.15 for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights of 2 000 kg or less;
(b) 1.43 for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights of 4 500 kg or greater;
(c) for aeroplanes with maximum take-off weights between 2 000 kg and 4500 kg, a factor derived by linear interpolation between 1.15 and 1.43 according to the maximum take-off weight of the aeroplane.
I hope this helps as the red wine has kicked in.