Advanced Cockpit Flight Training - Opinions?

[RadioSaigon]

...not to mention that a single briefing may be attended by as many students are ready for same, for a minimal increase in the time required to brief. Not a bad hourly rate then, is it? Where do I get some of that action???

[TSIO540]

Touche my fellow aviators! It is agreed that charging every student the individual briefing rate is a bit crap from the student point of view (I've been there myself). However the flip-side is that if student's don't pay, employers can't pay and if employers pay peanuts then all you get are monkeys!

With respect to charging a pre-flight briefing, it has been my experience (over 1000 hrs of ab-initio instruction) that before each ab-initio flight can commence, an instructor must first:
- find the student,
- give a preflight brief,
- conduct or supervise the sign-out (making student has all required
equipment) and reviewing of MR etc,
- go with the student to supervise a pre-flight inspection (direct or indirect
depending on the student's level of competency)
- get strapped in; and
- get checks done to finally start the engine!

To complete that for every flight takes on average 60 minutes... that is time the employer has to pay the instructor for (or any reasonable employer should be). Why should a student who is utilising the said instructor's time not pay for it?

Another point to note is that NOT ONCE have I heard the question being asked at the airline level as to "which school did you learn to fly at?" Where learning to fly matters is will the training (and your self promotion skills) get you your FIRST job? It is your experience since gaining a that coveted license that matters for every subsequent job.

[Awol57]

Tacho time works of engine RPM. The tacho turns over 1 hr when the engine is running at cruise RPM for one hour. If the engine is idling or low power (such as on the ground) the TACHO time turns over slower.

VDO is typically based on clock time when the engine is running - run off oil pressure as the switching mechanism or something along those lines.

I am sure a LAME can give us a better idea of exactly how it works, but thats the basics of it as I understand it.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

VDO or Hobbs is a clock that runs on a meter usually activated by oil pressure but sometimes by master switch. This is the time that you log and that the instructor gets paid for if casual.

Normally you get around 110 VDO or "revenue" hours to 100 tacho hours and costings will be done on this basis. So, if you get it on tacho not only will you log less but you will pay 10% more.

[Rollingout]

So CASA's ruling is "when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking-off until the moment at which it comes to rest after landing". Am I right in saying that means when the plane starts moving from where it was parked to the runway, including taxi/waiting time, flying, landing and taxiing back to the parking area?
If that's the case wouldn't VDO be better as you accumulate all that time waiting around to take-off anyway?

[The Green Goblin]

Or in the charter world you log wheels off wheels on times on your flight plan and add 0.1 for VFR or 0.3 for IFR per landing.

[Rollingout]

So does that mean if you learn with a company that charges by Tacho you will still acrrue hours by the VDO?

[Awol57]

Assuming they have a VDO, yes.

Charging time and logbook time can be different.

[Rollingout]

Thanks for all the input guys. I've gone and booked myself a TIF with ACFT this weekend so we'll see how it goes. I'm still not sure if I want to go with them for the GFPL as the price difference of the Deke compared to the Boomerang at Minovation is a fair bit but I'd still like to see what they offer for that money. But I'm thinking the price is roughly the same if you also get the tailwheel and CSU endos to boot.
I'm also unsure of training in a plane with the seating arranged front and back instead of side by side. I think I'd rather be able to see what the instructor is doing so I can get a better idea of what I'm supposed to be doing.

[A37575]

ACFT's aircraft look well maintained

Doesn't mean a thing. Like looking over a gleaming second hand car with the speedo wound back. Check their maintenance releases. Are they squeaky clean with no defects reported? Immedately be on your guard. No defects noted may mean there are none and it's the perfect aeroplane - or there are defects but not recorded because it costs money to fix and it's best not to advertise the fact to CASA.

[A37575]

Or in the charter world you log wheels off wheels on times on your flight plan and add 0.1 for VFR or 0.3 for IFR per landing

What is the rationale for the difference between IFR and VFR. Is that in the Regs somewhere. Seems just another way of grabbing money from the customer.

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
Or in the charter world you log wheels off wheels on times on your flight plan and add 0.1 for VFR or 0.3 for IFR per landing
What is the rationale for the difference between IFR and VFR. Is that in the Regs somewhere. Seems just another way of grabbing money from the customer.

Obviously you have never left the flying school!

The customer only ever pays the wheels off wheels on times or the Airswitch if fitted. You add the 0.1 & 0.3 per landing to the Airswitch/WO WO to get your pilot logbook times. Or you can record the off chocks on chocks which worse out a little more for your logbook.

Difference for VFR & IFR is IFR requires more stringent instrument checking and more radio work. The 0.1 & 0.3 cover the initial taxi and the landing taxi.

[Awol57]

I still dont understand this tacho charging? Does it mean that if i am taxiying with very little engine power, and when i am 'warming' up the engine, i am actually not paying for aircraft hire?

No it doesn't mean that. However a VDO will tick over 0.1hr every 6 mins all the time the engine is running. The Tacho on the other hand, when idling and warming the engine, may take 10mins to tick over 0.1hr. At cruise power it should take 6mins to tick over 0.1hr. At full power it might take 5mins to tick over 0.1hrs. I plucked the figures out of the air (minutes wise) but hopefully you get the idea.

[Awol57]

That is my understanding of it. You only use full power at takeoff and when climbing in most lighties.

[LesleyD]

Highly recommend ACFT

As a regular student at ACFT I can highly recommend them as a flight training school. I have been flying there since February this year and have been very impressed with their high level of professionalism, teaching methods, aircraft maintenance and tidiness, instructor experience and customer service. They treat you like a person and not just a number.

I initially completed currency, tail wheel and CSU endorsements in their 2 Super Decathlons which are a pleasure to fly and lots of fun. I'm now flying a C172 to complete my PPL.

Go there and visit them and have a chat with the instuctors and check out the planes.

www.acft.com.au

[Virtually There]

They add 0.2 to all tacho time logs on the Decathlons at ACFT. The clock hardly ticks over at all at 1000rpm, so by the time you've warmed up, pre-flighted and lined up, you're lucky to have added 0.1.

From personal experience, you will take longer to learn to fly a tail-dragger as an abo-initio pilot and you will not be able to complete your GFPT or Navs (PPL) in ACFT's Decathlons as they have no Attitude Indicator. Personally, you would be better off learning to fly a Cessna/Piper and leave the Decathlon for your tail-dragger/CSU endorsement and/or EMT/aero ratings - that's what they're designed for. The longer it takes for you to learn to fly, the more money will spend. Soon you will discover you have all these hours on a Decathlon but won't be able to use the same aircraft to get your GFPT or PPL and will have to learn to fly something else anyway.

It's a great plane to fly, but it's not the best beginner's aircraft.

[LesleyD]

Method of charge for the Decathlons at ACFT

The method of charge for the Decathlons at ACFT is based on Tacho time. Therefore at the end of your flight if the Tacho time is say 0.8 hours then you pay for 0.8 hours of aircraft hire but you log 1.0 hours (add 0.2 hours) in your flight log book. The additional 0.2 hours that you add to your log book time is to cover average taxiing/waiting time etc when you are still in command of the aircraft so you are still entitled to log the time. So you are getting more log book time than you are actually paying for!

If you would like any further explanation give the guys at ACFT a call on [phone] or visit them and they will be only too happy to explain it to you.

[Rollingout]

Briefing times? You mean the quick explanation just prior to the flight lesson? I'm used to home study and then when fly day comes have a short briefing with the instructor about the days lesson and off we go!

Let's hope tomorrow clears up!!

[A37575]

Difference for VFR & IFR is IFR requires more stringent instrument checking and more radio work

What utter bloody rubbish. Man, that takes the cake and is so typical of the GA flying training industry. Of course I presume that someone has done measured taxi trials with a stop watch to see how long it takes a pilot to scan his flight instruments while taxiing (three seconds maybe?)

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
Difference for VFR & IFR is IFR requires more stringent instrument checking and more radio work
What utter bloody rubbish. Man, that takes the cake and is so typical of the GA flying training industry. Of course I presume that someone has done measured taxi trials with a stop watch to see how long it takes a pilot to scan his flight instruments while taxiing (three seconds maybe?)

Instrument checks, more engines to run up, more navaids to TIT, Getting a word into centre when its busy (or HF which can be a pain)

As yes a thorough instrument scan takes longer than 3 seconds.

Back to your 152 fella, you might make it in 3 seconds there