Advanced Cockpit Flight Training - Opinions?

[LesleyD]

ACFT

Hi Politically Blonde

There are students of all ages at ACFT. You will definately fit in. I am in the 'mature student' group as well, also getting back into flying and feel very comfortable there.

The 'briefings' cover items not necessarily covered in the text books including the practical application of that information. They are not a substitute for self study. They complement your study. I have found the briefings very valuable and would rather be given a briefing on the ground with a proper presentation at the lower briefing charge rate than in the air when you are trying to do other things like fly and navigate. Without a good ground briefing you could spend more time in the air trying to master a particular part of the training. The more information you have the more chance you have to be a better and safer all round pilot.

When you speak to the school they can give you an outline of the training program and the briefings to expect at your stage of flying.

Hope that helps.

[Joker 10]

Goblin, A3 seems to be one of those folk who know it all and will last 35 seconds after inadvertantly entering cloud before exiting nose down rotating violently.

Time spent pre flight instrument set up and aids set and checked if fundamental to good IFR practice and is life preserving methodology practiced by older wise long living pilots.

[Rollingout]

Hi all,

Well today I had my TIF with ACFT and was satisfied with pretty much all aspects of the operation. It was a bit of a mission to find but I think that was more my fault than anything. Nevertheless the receptionist was friendly and helpful with directions and was welcoming when I finally did figure out which I was pointing!
After a brief wait I was greeted by my instructor and we sat down together for a chat about my history and also his and how he had ended up at ACFT. We moved on to more specific info after that with the talk heading toward where I would like to take my flying and how I'd like to get there.
Once all that was out of the way it was onto the fun stuff! The Deke was waiting and we had a pre-flight to do. My instructor happily showed me around the aircraft and explained what he was looking for aswell as getting me to do check the fuel. He also showed me what it should actually look like if there was water in the fuel which I thought was cool because I'd never seen it and probably would not really know what to look for otherwise. It's a small detail but an important one I think.
So in we get and being an aerobatic trainer getting into the seat belt was an epic in itself! A bit of fiddling and ratcheting saw us taxiing down to the runway. ACFT is a fair way from the run-up bays so don't be surprised to add 5-10 minutes (total) onto your time with taxiing. It didn't bother me so much as I like looking at all the planes and hangars along the way... but that's just me. I guess if you're in that much of a rush, go to RACWA.
No need to wait anyway as we were lucky enough to get straight onto the runway from the run-up bay with hardly any waiting. I was happy and a little nervous that the instructor got me to do the throttle and the stick during take-off. But there were no problems and we were soon in the air. We'd talked about what to do beforehand and the decision was to try some turns, and just a general fly around with me paying attention to the feel of the turns with the rudder and especially the attitude of the plane. Also we'd agreed that I would sit in the back seat as I didn't want to worry about CSU control today and just wanted to go for a fly and see how the instructor and the school acted. Anyway, if we had time at the end he promised to do some aerobatics too!
You might wonder why I didn't want the front seat so much. Well, truth be told, last time I started flying I realised that I spent a heap of time staring at the instruments rather than just flying and it showed with a lack of understanding in some areas. So this time I was wonderfully surprised that without any instruments my eyes and balance did the work easy. I had a great view for attitude and all I had to worry about was keeping my attitude, looking out for traffic and enjoy the experience. I found the Deke responded really quickly to rudder control and I could definitely feel the plane slipping and the need for rudder when making turns.
With time running short we headed for the sky and the ocean not far from Rockingham... I think! Up to altitude and away we went with just enough time to squeeze in a loop, a barrel roll, a stalling turn and lastly a little inverted flying.... Woah! That was awesome! Nice way to top off a great flight. Time to head back to Jandakot. Again we had some luck on the entrance into the circuit and got on the base leg and straight into final after a Cessna. And again the instructor let me help with the approach which I found nerve racking but also quite easy to hold the correct attitude and to keep the centreline. Musta been because I wasn't distracted with all the gizmos up front.
Problems I found were minimal, I guess the headset I'd been given had a boom that kept swinging out so I was constantly fiddling, trying to bring it back in. It buggered up my call to the tower after we landed... I felt like such a twit! As mentioned earlier there was no attitude indicator or directional indicator which I quizzed my instructor about and he said that within the next 6 weeks both Decathlons should be getting kitted out with the two missing instruments. Something about laser prism gyros that aren't affected by unusual attitudes, etc. After which they will be able to run students through to the GFPL in the Deke if the student wishes.
The other problem of course is the cost of the Deke which can stack up over time. I believe you can choose to do your training in their C172 instead. I think they also have a Diamond if you like. Compared to the C172, if you wanted your tailwheel aswell, I think the cost is about equal with the Deke in the long run. I'm not sure about the Diamond but I reckon it'd be cheaper still.

The positives: I think the school is nicely run and the instructor certainly knows his stuff. The planes are well looked after. I could see myself being a student there most definitely. As to which plane I would train... I still can't figure that out! I'm erring towards the Deke simply because I think it's more my style and one of the reasons I picked ACFT in the first place was the chance to do my aerobatics rating in that plane. I still would like to continue to my CPL though so maybe I should just churn my way through with a C172 and then come back later for the fun stuff... I can't decide!

Thanks all for the tips and opinions so far. This thread has been very helpful to me and hopefully to others. It'd be good if anyone else going to do a TIF at a different school in the future could do a similar write up.

Cheers

[LesleyD]

ACFT

Hi Politically Blonde

As a student at ACFT I can say that you should give them a go. I am very happy there.

As I said earlier, the 'briefings' cover items not necessarily covered in the text books including the practical application of that information. They are not a substitute for self study. They complement your study. I have found the briefings very valuable and would rather be given a briefing on the ground with a proper presentation at the lower briefing charge rate than in the air when you are trying to do other things like fly and navigate. Without a good ground briefing you could spend more time in the air trying to master a particular part of the training. The more information you have the more chance you have to be a better and safer all round pilot.

Ground briefings are all about minimising your flying time. The flying time is the most expensive part of achieving your licence so if you can utilise the ground briefings efficiently the overall cost of your licence should be less otherwise you will probably end up doing additional hours over the minimum to achieve your licence.

Give the instructors a call and they can explain about the briefings in more detail and answer any specific questions you may have. There may actually not be as many briefings as you think there are. Phone them on 9417 1927.

Happy flying.

[Rollingout]

Hi PB,

I was told it's pretty much just a go over of what the upcoming flight will be and any extra info you may need, etc. From my limited experience it's pretty much the same at Min's. You sit down and have a half hour chat before you take off in the plane.
Hope that helps.

[j3pipercub]

PB You're 32? Start acting it!!!

You will get briefings where-ever you go and will be charged too

[The Green Goblin]

Goblin, A3 seems to be one of those folk who know it all and will last 35 seconds after inadvertantly entering cloud before exiting nose down rotating violently.

Time spent pre flight instrument set up and aids set and checked if fundamental to good IFR practice and is life preserving methodology practiced by older wise long living pilots.

Put simply the guy is a clown

Takes the FO at least 20 mins to complete a cockpit setup on the ground before you even start an engine while the skipper is doing the flight plan. The Skipper then double checks again when he takes his seat and then both flight crew members together run through the lot again on the roll!

3 seconds eh??

[Perthjay85]

hey all, first time poster here.
im currently learning with moinovation and im extremely happy with there services and the training they provide. Its a bit hard for me as i can only fly weekends and its a popular time to fly so you have to book a few weeks in blocks. thats the only downside.

I am learning with Min and i think she is very professional.
As for the briefings when you start they are about 20-30 minutes going over what your doing in the lesson and in particular whats happening to the aircraft with each particular manouvre. After the lesson its usually 15 minutes or so just to reitterate what went on during the lesson.

sometimes the briefings can be as short as 5 minutes. it all depends on the lesson that your doing that day. and minovation charge from the time the engine starts to the time it stops, its a clock based counter and nothing to do with the RPM of the engine from what i can gather.

hope this helps

Jay

[Rollingout]

If the briefings and therefore money are the concern go to Minovation. Period. Their hire rates for the Boomerang and Tomahawk are cheaper so you'll probably save a grand or so during the GFPT part of your license. I guess another difference is, and please correct me if I'm wrong, ACFT does both the 150hr and the 200hr CPL whereas Min's only does the latter, if that's of any concern to you.
Unfortunately I can't give offer you anymore info at the moment as I'm waiting to do (and hopefully pass!) my class 1 medical before I sign up and spend precious money on more lessons.

PB, if you do decide to go with Min's would you perhaps be able to do some sort of a write up of your initial experience like I've done here. I think it would be a valuable post for future WA pilots who are in the same boat as you and I.

Jay, do they charge for the briefing times?

[Perthjay85]

rollingout they do not charge for briefing times up until where I am now. That might however change when we get into nav ex's as the briefs are about 2 hours long from the averages that i have been told.

but up until then there is no charge for anywhere up to an hours briefing before and after the flight.

overall minovation is a great little company with really good prices from what i have seen.

as for the 150 hr CPL course min who owns the business doesnt believe it puts you in good standing with airlines and doesnt achieve the results you would get from the 200 hr CPL course that is why she only believes in the 200 hr CPL course.

[GADRIVR]

Here we go.......boys and girls...listen up.
IF YOU ONLY GETTING 20-30 MINS for a initial long briefing that relates to the ab initio sequences.......then you are getting ripped off and your instructor is an unprofessional CLOWN who shouldn't be in instructing!!!!
End of story.
Any PROFESSIONAL instructor will know exactly what I'm getting at!

[Bla Bla Bla]

I've been to both ACFT and Min's, both pretty good but Min is the best. One or two of the instructors at acft are in the flying jacket with lots of badges brigade, which is always a worry.

Flew the Dec at acft, very nice machines used to fly them years ago but these ones are tidy. It also depends on what you are going there for, is it ppl or converting your 6000hr foreign cpl. If you are the latter then price and efficiency would rule me and if its initial training then a comfy relaxed atmosphere and price is important and Min's get the vote for that and she does not have more badges than a boy scout either. I also found acft quite slack on time keeping of the aircraft when you turn up for a flight, which is fine if they call you but in my case they did'nt.

But I reckon after years in the industry and many flight schools visited they are both good. fly with both if you are unsure and make a decision after you would not buy a car just by looking at one, you would drive a few.

[Perthjay85]

your points are valid GADRIVR and my points may not be as im only a student and have stuck with one instructor, but I believe that your post is incorrect. everything I have encountered in the air had already been explained previously. I feel very comfortable with the briefings but some are longer than others.

If I had to sit through an hour long briefing every lesson I can tell you right now that I wouldnt be able to do it.

now these are only my points so im not interested in a pissing match with REAL pilots but I like my training just the way it is and im very impressed with it.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

GA Driver, a long briefing can take the form of guided study.

[Perthjay85]

Charlie Foxtrot India you are correct.

and I am sorry i didnt state it before. before each lesson your told what chapter to read over and understand. and the pre flight brief is going over what you read in that particular chapter

[GADRIVR]

"GA Driver, a long briefing can take the form of guided study"

Thats what a initial long briefing should be but it should take around 45-90 mins depending on the sequence. At the end of the day , the instructor should be satisfying themselves that the content is covered in full and the student understands said content.
20 mins chat and lets go flying never has and never will cut the mustard.
Not a real fan of guided study in any case (at least for the ab initio sequences).

"If I had to sit through an hour long briefing every lesson I can tell you right now that I wouldnt be able to do it"
Not before EVERY lesson. Just the initial sequences, and the first time at that particular sequence at that.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

GA driver you are of course welcome to your opinion but to call anyone who does things differently from you (and still satisfies the requirement to brief the student prior to the flight) an "unprofessional clown who shouldn't be instructing" is rather unnecessary.

[Awol57]

90mins for an ab initio sequence?? If you did that you wouldn't pass your FIR long brief, let alone any of the rest of the test.

[The Green Goblin]

Indeed!

40 mins was the aiming point when I used to instruct. Sometimes you would go over, 50 mins max if the student was a struggler or you'd ace through in 30 mins if they were switched on and didn't need much revision from the previous lesson.

90 mins is over kill, they'll be switched off and daydreaming about the lesson ahead fairly quickly and won't take much in!

The only thing you will be achieving in 90 mins is to prove that you love the sound of your own voice.

[Van Gough]

but it should take around 45-90 mins

Jeez imagine trying to waste 90 minutes briefing Straight and Level...