Four Corners ABC 27 Jul 09 and Aerospace Aviation
This is what Justice White had to say in the course of dismissing the statutory demand:
"In all cases the defendants' [the Indian Students'] claim was for damages for an alleged breach of contract. It would not have been seriously arguable that moneys were payable as a debt on the basis that there had been a complete failure of consideration. It is possible that in one or two cases there may have been an entitlement to claim some moneys by way of refund, although even that appears to me to be doubtful."
In other words, the allegations that have been made are described by the judge as "doubtful". I don't recall Four Corners mentioning that.
"In all cases the defendants' [the Indian Students'] claim was for damages for an alleged breach of contract. It would not have been seriously arguable that moneys were payable as a debt on the basis that there had been a complete failure of consideration. It is possible that in one or two cases there may have been an entitlement to claim some moneys by way of refund, although even that appears to me to be doubtful."
In other words, the allegations that have been made are described by the judge as "doubtful". I don't recall Four Corners mentioning that.
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There can be a big difference between what people would regard as fair or ethical, and what can be enforced through the courts - particularly if a contract was written by one party's lawyers, and designed to protect that party as much as possible.
To me it sounds like the contract may have been written in a way that avoids putting obligations on AA - so that even if the expected flight training wasn't provided, there might not be an obligation to provide a refund.
To me it sounds like the contract may have been written in a way that avoids putting obligations on AA - so that even if the expected flight training wasn't provided, there might not be an obligation to provide a refund.
Not trying to defend either side, but a few ideas.
1) Remember dual flying is always more costly than solo. If you want to work out what you're entitled to, you need to find out what hours of flying in each type is included in the course cost. (e.g. 20hrs dual C152, 20hrs dual PA28 etc). Remember the 50k won't be ONLY for flying, things like maps/uniform/textbooks/tower fees etc usually are included in the cost of these full time courses. If you required more dual hours than the minimums (which is what the course fee will be based on) then you will more than likely overfly your allocated hours (the hours you have paid for in the basic fee), and have to pay extra. Go through your logbook, work out the $$ value of the flying you have done so far (dual cessna + Solo cessna etc) and see what comes up.
2) Does the course fee include accomodation? Or if you stay longer does the excess accomodation cost come out of your course fee, or is it an additional payment that you have to make? If you've been in Aus for longer than the course duration you will be having to pay extra for the extra accomodation somewhere.
3) Does AA charge students for not turning up to flights? Have you had to do additional theory or anything else which could have added to your cost?
Again not trying to make any implications, just give you some ideas on things to check about where the money may have gone.
Many agents seem to give the students an idea that the course fee is the only cost involved, and you will get a licence regardless. This isn't the case, the licencing system requires applicants to reach a certain standard, and if extra training is required to reach this standard (and it usually is if the course quotes the minimum required hours, which is becoming the norm for most of these schools) then there will be extra money involved.
As has been said, people on either side of this incident should be very, VERY careful about what is said in the public domain (including this forum). I have no affiliation with AA or the students in question.
1) Remember dual flying is always more costly than solo. If you want to work out what you're entitled to, you need to find out what hours of flying in each type is included in the course cost. (e.g. 20hrs dual C152, 20hrs dual PA28 etc). Remember the 50k won't be ONLY for flying, things like maps/uniform/textbooks/tower fees etc usually are included in the cost of these full time courses. If you required more dual hours than the minimums (which is what the course fee will be based on) then you will more than likely overfly your allocated hours (the hours you have paid for in the basic fee), and have to pay extra. Go through your logbook, work out the $$ value of the flying you have done so far (dual cessna + Solo cessna etc) and see what comes up.
2) Does the course fee include accomodation? Or if you stay longer does the excess accomodation cost come out of your course fee, or is it an additional payment that you have to make? If you've been in Aus for longer than the course duration you will be having to pay extra for the extra accomodation somewhere.
3) Does AA charge students for not turning up to flights? Have you had to do additional theory or anything else which could have added to your cost?
Again not trying to make any implications, just give you some ideas on things to check about where the money may have gone.
Many agents seem to give the students an idea that the course fee is the only cost involved, and you will get a licence regardless. This isn't the case, the licencing system requires applicants to reach a certain standard, and if extra training is required to reach this standard (and it usually is if the course quotes the minimum required hours, which is becoming the norm for most of these schools) then there will be extra money involved.
As has been said, people on either side of this incident should be very, VERY careful about what is said in the public domain (including this forum). I have no affiliation with AA or the students in question.
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I worked as an instructor for them, I quit because I had 18 full time students. I couldnt do a good job. to put a long story short, she got greedy. She didnt have the resources but was all too happy to keep taking applicants. What goes around comes around.
From ABC news:
A Sydney flying school that was accused of using unqualified trainers to teach Indian students how to fly, has been deregistered by the New South Wales Government.
Several students complained that they had paid thousands of dollars in tuition fees to the Bankstown Airport based Aerospace Aviation, but were left without qualifications.
The flying school says it will appeal against its deregistration in the New South Wales Administrative Decisions Tribunal.
It comes as New South Wales Premier, Nathan Rees, prepares to meet India's External Affairs Minister.
A spokesman for the Premier say Mr Rees will use the meeting to explain that the Government has set up a ministerial taskforce on international education -- designed to review the experiences of foreign students.
Several students complained that they had paid thousands of dollars in tuition fees to the Bankstown Airport based Aerospace Aviation, but were left without qualifications.
The flying school says it will appeal against its deregistration in the New South Wales Administrative Decisions Tribunal.
It comes as New South Wales Premier, Nathan Rees, prepares to meet India's External Affairs Minister.
A spokesman for the Premier say Mr Rees will use the meeting to explain that the Government has set up a ministerial taskforce on international education -- designed to review the experiences of foreign students.
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Haha yeah I heard that too. Interesting times ahead.
Anyone interested in taking bets for the next school to be deregistered?
Haha I take that back, I shouldnt be saying things like that.
Anyone interested in taking bets for the next school to be deregistered?
Haha I take that back, I shouldnt be saying things like that.
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After all is said and done, I worry about the instructors......overall, you would be hard pressed to find a better bunch of people. Close knit, generally very good at what they do and working under strain that shouldn't be there in the first place. But now for something completely different.
Chins up boys and girls...it's only for a little while longer. Then you get to go to an airline and say things like..."ah, GA days, when we REALLY used to fly"....or...."I miss the early mornings in Bankstown etc etc etc. Once there, you get divorced from your childhood sweetheart who has discovered that the industry essentially doesn't change, get remarried to a hot cart tart...and divorce again when she finds out you've been boffing her old work/flatmate (who was, lets face it; far hotter than the second wife any old way!!). You spend a few years in management, taking your leave on staff flights to Bangcock...oops Bangkok, for about ten years before taking a shine to that lovely little drinks waitress of dubious genetic beginnings in the "Wun yung boi" bar and bring her to begin a new married life in Australia, before...yep...you guessed it...you divorce again at the age of 65.
Seeing as all three wives have taken every cent you've ever earnt, you begin working as a crusty old sim instructor at the airline before being fired for "conduct unbecoming", move back to Bankstown where you work in Aerospace again for a time.
One day you don't turn up for work due to being detained at the YSSY perimeter fence...apparently you were yelling incomprehensible spit filled obsceneties at landing aircraft!!
Eventually you end up in the care of a limp wristed, twisted "hellfire club attending" palative care nurse who has his way with you for the final days of your life!
And all because you believed the brochure......sweet dreams!
Chins up boys and girls...it's only for a little while longer. Then you get to go to an airline and say things like..."ah, GA days, when we REALLY used to fly"....or...."I miss the early mornings in Bankstown etc etc etc. Once there, you get divorced from your childhood sweetheart who has discovered that the industry essentially doesn't change, get remarried to a hot cart tart...and divorce again when she finds out you've been boffing her old work/flatmate (who was, lets face it; far hotter than the second wife any old way!!). You spend a few years in management, taking your leave on staff flights to Bangcock...oops Bangkok, for about ten years before taking a shine to that lovely little drinks waitress of dubious genetic beginnings in the "Wun yung boi" bar and bring her to begin a new married life in Australia, before...yep...you guessed it...you divorce again at the age of 65.
Seeing as all three wives have taken every cent you've ever earnt, you begin working as a crusty old sim instructor at the airline before being fired for "conduct unbecoming", move back to Bankstown where you work in Aerospace again for a time.
One day you don't turn up for work due to being detained at the YSSY perimeter fence...apparently you were yelling incomprehensible spit filled obsceneties at landing aircraft!!
Eventually you end up in the care of a limp wristed, twisted "hellfire club attending" palative care nurse who has his way with you for the final days of your life!
And all because you believed the brochure......sweet dreams!
Last edited by GADRIVR; 7th Aug 2009 at 05:23.
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But wait....
Just think of me as the Richard Bach of Australian GA.....possessing an Austrian accent and a gimp mask!!!
Stay tuned for more...it involves a trip to Hell, sauve , three schoolboys and a monkey
Always wanted to do a beatup of YSBK...perhaps nows the time?
All those in favour say Yay!
Just think of me as the Richard Bach of Australian GA.....possessing an Austrian accent and a gimp mask!!!
Stay tuned for more...it involves a trip to Hell, sauve , three schoolboys and a monkey
Always wanted to do a beatup of YSBK...perhaps nows the time?
All those in favour say Yay!
Worrals - Just imagine all the shocked looked and dropped jaws after such an realistic insight of the life of a pilot. Perhaps that should be put into a glossy brochure!!
Pure GOLD!
Pure GOLD!
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I have a (non-famous) professional actor friend with a similar tale of woe.
I reckon we could put them together and tour high schools with a demotivational careers seminar, complete with glossy brochures. It would be far more useful than the uni recruitment sharks and a much needed wakeup call for the 'off to Hollywood/gonna be an A380 skipper' brigade
Maybe a couple of ATCers would also be keen?
Nothing wrong with dreams and full marks to those who got there (whether A380s or Tony award winners) but real life decisions are better off made with some facts attached!
I reckon we could put them together and tour high schools with a demotivational careers seminar, complete with glossy brochures. It would be far more useful than the uni recruitment sharks and a much needed wakeup call for the 'off to Hollywood/gonna be an A380 skipper' brigade
Maybe a couple of ATCers would also be keen?
Nothing wrong with dreams and full marks to those who got there (whether A380s or Tony award winners) but real life decisions are better off made with some facts attached!
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It's funny isn't it? Anything occupation or activity that is seen as a bit glam, a bit posh et al, seems to attract three basic sorts of individuals.
1. The genuine optimistic hopless dreamer.
2. The no idea wannabe.
3. The scheming opportunist or blood sucking parasite.
I guess the majority of us are quite firmly in the entrenched in the camp of the first category. Goodness knows why would we be involved in the first place if we didn't have that basic disposition??!! We put up with the crud which this industry throws at us because lets face it....it's a kinda groovy activity.
It always works out however that numbers two and three from the above seem perpetually attracted to one another. (possibly in the same way as two first cousins from Tasmania seemed destined to come together in some grotesque alliance!). The resulting confused union has the same effect on the industry as do the slackjawed befuddled cousins have on their home town...everybody knows it happened, everybody knows why it happened.....but no one wants to tell Grandpa due to his previous inaction on past occasions...and lets face it kiddies, I think we all know how drooling crazy old Grandpa came into existence in the first place eh?!
I've been around long enough to see whats happening at Bankstown and other airports repeated in some way shape or form in the rest of the industry for years now. You know it's not just the flying schools. Its the tinpot freight operators, grubby charter operators, no idea managers from airlines and corrupt skygod union reps....all seem to be cut from the same cloth. Get what you can and damn the others. She's right Jack, I'm OK.
And yet....if we took the above three categories and somehow kept those cousins from mixing in the first place......we wouldn't be where the industry is right now.
Whats that you say? "Ohhh GADRIVR, you're such a cynic and have obviously taken too many knocks. Perhaps you need a Bex, cup of tea and a good lie down!"
That may be true my cross eyed friend.
But at least I won't be dreaming about screwing my female kinfolk!
Good night darlings!!
1. The genuine optimistic hopless dreamer.
2. The no idea wannabe.
3. The scheming opportunist or blood sucking parasite.
I guess the majority of us are quite firmly in the entrenched in the camp of the first category. Goodness knows why would we be involved in the first place if we didn't have that basic disposition??!! We put up with the crud which this industry throws at us because lets face it....it's a kinda groovy activity.
It always works out however that numbers two and three from the above seem perpetually attracted to one another. (possibly in the same way as two first cousins from Tasmania seemed destined to come together in some grotesque alliance!). The resulting confused union has the same effect on the industry as do the slackjawed befuddled cousins have on their home town...everybody knows it happened, everybody knows why it happened.....but no one wants to tell Grandpa due to his previous inaction on past occasions...and lets face it kiddies, I think we all know how drooling crazy old Grandpa came into existence in the first place eh?!
I've been around long enough to see whats happening at Bankstown and other airports repeated in some way shape or form in the rest of the industry for years now. You know it's not just the flying schools. Its the tinpot freight operators, grubby charter operators, no idea managers from airlines and corrupt skygod union reps....all seem to be cut from the same cloth. Get what you can and damn the others. She's right Jack, I'm OK.
And yet....if we took the above three categories and somehow kept those cousins from mixing in the first place......we wouldn't be where the industry is right now.
Whats that you say? "Ohhh GADRIVR, you're such a cynic and have obviously taken too many knocks. Perhaps you need a Bex, cup of tea and a good lie down!"
That may be true my cross eyed friend.
But at least I won't be dreaming about screwing my female kinfolk!
Good night darlings!!
Last edited by GADRIVR; 8th Aug 2009 at 12:23.